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pimple
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Registered: March 2006
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actually stick as knowledge?
Full points, but I am uncomfortable with the image of you as a vessel that information is poured into, and then drained away.
Not that any of my blather is important, but what will you remember in a day, week, or longer? Knowing where to find something is surely more important than actually knowing it, there is just too much to know.
For me 'bad boys' was something that I needed to know sixty or so years ago, and haven't used in 59 and a half, but Ken's screen name triggered a random neural firing, and I am certain we have that bit of trivia in common.
But if someone doesn't know anything, and knows how to find everything - what is the impact on your cultural literacy, and the actual Culture when that becomes the norm?
Regards-
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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>Does information so easily gained actually stick as knowledge?
Not usually, no. But generally there will be a remnant -- a piece of "meta-information", so to speak -- left, so that when (or rather, if) I ever need it I will know enough about it to know where to look it up.
I've found that's the best way of remembering things: remembering where to find the information I need. My memory itself is not actually very good; I will never try and remember something if it would be possible to write it down. Hence I don't really make a distinction between memories that stick, and memories that don't.
David
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
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Messages: 375
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No Message Body
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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black
brown
red
orange
yellow
green
blue
violet
grey
white
It is the color code to tell how much resistance a resistor has by the color coded stripes on it.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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check my post Deeej
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Correct! but I've already awarded points to Deeej. However; if you knew the answer without the benefit of the web, I might be persuaded to...
How is it that you knew?
Regards
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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Oh and I didnt have to Google it either.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Thats one of the first things I learned about electronics. Only mine was Bad Boys Rape. Using Black boys would ahve been a bit racest.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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>But if someone doesn't know anything, and knows how to find everything - what is the impact on your cultural literacy, and the actual Culture when that becomes the norm?
I take issue with the "doesn't know anything". Some "seed knowledge" is necessary before one is able to look up anything efficiently, and I don't think that will ever change. I could not, for example, have looked up and summarised the resistor codes without having a basic idea of what a resistor is.
If you replace that question with "if someone doesn't know much, but knows how to find everything" then I think it is very much a good thing for cultural literacy. It's better than just "someone doesn't know much", which is how it was in the old days.
If people are interested in a subject then they will still look it up in just as great depth as they would before the information age. More, even, as the internet has made available specialist information just as much as it has made available trivial, general information.
David
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Good for you, Brian. 
I have never studied practical electronics formally, so I have to plead ignorance as the reason for my resorting to Google. Odd, really, considering I have studied some pretty complicated theoretical electronic logic used to construct microchips. (Though don't ask me about it -- I won't pretend I can still remember it! I think my entire long-term memory capacity must have been wasted on Greek and Latin verbs when I was 8.)
David
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pimple
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Messages: 375
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in ten or twenty odd years when you've just come home from a 20 hour day at the film studio, and the kids are crying cause you're late. Someone on the tube said something that you vaguely remember, its interesting, and you'd like to look into it but Billy is doing his homework, and you are bloody tired. And so you go to bed without the satisfaction of the intellectual pursuit (but the sex was good).
You have a luxury now that may get away from you. (I think that you are wrong about the state of the culture, but only time will prove it out - and I won't be here to see the results.)
Regards
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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... in ten or twenty hours. My brain has turned to mush, I'm afraid!
I'll post a proper reply tomorrow.
Night night!
Deeej
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cossie
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Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
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I think that Deeej's reaction was a perhaps a bit harsh, because there has clearly been some sort of misunderstanding between us. Reading your post of 21 April in context, you clearly said that nouns in Modern English had gender. It may not be what you meant, but it IS what you said!
Thus we have been arguing at cross-purposes; I certainly agree that all nouns had gender in Anglo-Saxon, and that - as in German - there were three genders. In the vast majority of cases, the gender in the two languages corresponded. This is demonstrated in early English documents such as 'The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle' and 'Beowulf'. A gradual migration to neuter (effectively 'no gender') was under way by the time of the Norman Conquest. As I said in an earlier post, the Normans tried to impose the French language; French became the language of the Court, the Law (until 1362), and it was the language of written communication. English survived for almost 300 years only as the language of spoken communication between the ordinary people; there are few surviving documents written in English from that time. It seems likely that during this period the lack of written examples for guidance led to a simplification in the structure of the language; the works of Geoffrey Chaucer, written between 1369 and 1387, contain some vestiges of gender endings, but these had all disappeared within the following century.
As regards 'Germanic' this is the name of a group of languages on the same 'branch' of the Indo-European 'tree', including English, Dutch, German, Frisian, Icelandic, Danish and the Scandinavian languages other than Finnish, which isn't an Indo-European language at all. There are other branches - for example, 'Romance', which includes (among others) Italian, French, Spanish and Portuguese, but not Basque, which again is not derived from Indo-European. You are quite right in saying that all Germanic languages had a common ancestor, but the splintering began more than two thousand years ago. The terms 'West Germanic' and 'North Germanic' don't appear in any of my reference books, but terminology changes as fast as women's fashion, so that's not necessarily surprising.
I’m not sure what you mean about irregular nouns. The only vestiges of declension in English are the possessive case (almost always by adding ‘-’s’) and the plural (generally by adding ‘-s’). There are still a few irregular nouns which form plurals differently (man/men, child/children, mouse/mice, sheep/sheep and so on), but so far as I can see there is no gender-related effect upon the way these nouns are used. There are, however, still a considerable number of ‘strong’ verbs, which change vowel sound in the past tense, and I agree that there does seem to be a strong correlation between verbs which are ‘strong’ in English and those which are ‘strong’ in German.
Over the years, some strong verbs have become weak (that is, forming the past tense by adding ‘-ed’, as in pick/picked, or sometimes ‘-t’, as in sweep/swept. There are however some curious differences between colloquial British English and colloquial American English. In British English, ‘shine’ is a strong verb, the past tense being ‘shone’; in American English the weak version ‘shined’ appears to be quite common – perhaps influenced by the well-known verse in the King James Bible ‘And the light shined in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not’. By contrast, the verb ‘dive’ has moved in the other direction; in British English it’s weak (past tense ‘dived) but in American English it appears to be strong (past tense ‘dove’). I cite as evidence Johnny Preston’s 1960s classic: ‘Running Bear dove in the water / Little White Dove did the same / And they swam out to each other / Through the swirling stream they came / As their hands touched and their lips met / The raging river pulled them down / Now they’ll always be together / In the Happy Hunting Ground.’
Ain’t nostalgia great!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I found the following in a book which describes life in England as it was lived 1000 years ago. The arrival of the Danes and other Norsemen created a duality in England:
"...The English writ ran all across southern England and far up into the Midlands, with the Norsemen driven back into the north and east of the country, inside an area that became known as the 'Danelaw'. The boundary between the original Anglo-Saxons and this second wave of newcomers roughly followed the line of Watling Street, the old Roman road that ran diagonally across the country from London to Chester. But many English remained living in the Danelaw, and as they dealt, day-by-day, with the invaders whose language was both similar yet awkwardly different from their own, the first and most important variety of 'pdgen' English was developed...
"The solution was the rubbing away through day-to-day usage of complicated word endings. Today most modern English plurals are formed simply by adding an s ... and adjectives remain the same whether singular or plural. Nor are nouns divided between masculine and feminine, as they are in German ... and in every other European language... By the year 1000, a hybrid language had been stirred together by the integration of the two great waves of invaders, and a common tongue existed that was at least roughly understood in every corner of the country."
Since my recent contributions to our discussions engendered no further comment, this time my contribution is purely informative. 
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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which occurred in spoken English in the middle ages. You may be interested in listening to this development. There is a site,
http://facweb.furman.edu/~mmenzer/gvs/dialogue.htm
where this is demonstrated. First click on "Middle English" (second line from the top) and then double-click on the "play" icon in the player.
Personally, I found this very interesting - but then in school I had to recite much of the Canterbury Tales in the original pronunciation. That was way back in the middle of the last century when the amassment of much useless learning was considered part of "a good education". (I went to a fantastic school and thoroughly enjoyed almost every minute of my "good education".)
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13818
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Nouns have genders. They tend not to have gender based differences in spelling, however, and our artciles both definite and indefinite do not show gender differences.
We do have at least ine adjective which alters its ending depending upon the gender of the noun: "blond" (m), "blonde" (f)
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>Nouns have genders. They tend not to have gender based differences in spelling, however, and our artciles both definite and indefinite do not show gender differences.
If there is no actual physical distinction then it is impossible to teach them, impossible for native speakers (except those who have studied the Germanic roots) to know about, and impossible to record in current grammar books; hence for all practical purposes genders do not exist.
We've just been through this with Ken!
>We do have at least ine adjective which alters its ending depending upon the gender of the noun: "blond" (m), "blonde" (f)
No, it changes depending on the sex of the noun, not the gender.
E.g. "a blond man", "a blonde woman"
In that case, the absence of gender in those things that it describes is transparent because "blond" is only used to refer to people (and very occasionally animals) that have sex. However, if it were a more general word, then you would realise that it could not respond to gender -- because the vast majority of English speakers have no idea of the gender of otherwise sexless objects it was being used to describe.
I hope that is not the only argument you are using to support the existence of genders.
Comments, please -- especially if anyone thinks I am wrong (Cossie, JFR).
David
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Yes, isn't it?
You bring back memories of our elderly college teacher of English grammar. He was born not very far from here but spoke English like an English aristocrat, and his students loved him!
Sailor
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I agree with you, David. What's more, 'blond/blonde' are no more English adjectives than 'chic' or 'brunette'. Has anyone ever heard a male described as being 'brun' - brown haired?
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Here's another way to remember the color code:
Bad Beer Rots Our Young Guts But Vodka Goes Well 
I used the mnemonic memory dealie all through high school to retain useless junk for tests that could be found easily on the internet. I know you scholarly guys are saying that memorizing trains the mind....but Google (and David's Wikipedia) make it all so much faster. I remember what I need to around me and the rest.....I Google.
{{hugs}}
GH
"You have your way. I have my way. As far as the right way, the correct way, and the only way - it doesn't exist."
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Ken,
I think they'd just like an example of a noun with gender. You have some interesting points but it is up to you to explain it thoroughly enough for all to easily understand. I've always thought an expert should be able to do that. I guess we're not expert yet at some things we have knowledge of.. Hmmm? Finish making your point, we'll listen. Or do you not have the time??
TeddyB!!
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Yay! Thanks for the fascinating reading Cossie! You are so smart! Man, I am in AWE!! More, more, more!! Hahahaha!! Teddy!!
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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yeah Simon, I'm not as dumb as I look!! I've worked & played in electronics but couldn't quite remember what it stood for.. a help to memorize (i get mixed up on the american & english spellings Z or S) something....
So, hey, google it!! :
"BBROYGBVGW
Black, Brown, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet, Grey, White [Electronic component colour code for the values: 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9). Can be recalled by the mnemonic: Bad Boys Root Only Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly] "
EASY question! what's next??
Love ya bro!
Teddy!!
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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resistor color code
Now dont tell me I am wrong on this one!!!
I learned that one in Navy electronics school in 1958 and I (as Popeye would say) "knows what I knows". lol
Ken
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Hi Ken
With all due respect, as you are my elder, I have little faith in what I was taught in school. Ideas change so rapidly and we absorb so much that's more opinion or present modes of thinking & teaching(what was the "new math" that flopped so profoundly in schools here??). Is it possible that some of what you heard or thought you heard was incorrect?
I'd like to hear what you'd learned about German/English syntax similarity. You may email me if you're not up to posting it.. or send a link or something.. I find what i wasn't interested to learn in school, now I am! What cossie said about language makes so much 'sense' that I copied it.
My Father's family move here from along the Rhine river in the 1700s. My mother's was from upper germany she always told me. Including Hungary, Poland, etc. Her family only came here when Hitler was showing his fanny. My grandma spoke German as a child. My great Grands had a strong germanic accent.
Love to you all! TeddyB!!
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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yes and things change so rapidly now even the future isn't what it used to be!!
(credit due to some impotant baseball player, forgot his name)
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Ok I will basically agree with what Cossie says here. I may have some minor disagreement about it somewhere, but it sounds right to me. I dont have a photgraphic mind and if some of you would give me a break on this, it afterall had been 43 years since I heard all of this. I could actually have some of the details wrong by now..........damn I dont profess to be perfect!
I now feel almost totally impotent to be able to discuss anything here as so far in every case I have said anything, I have been picked apart. I feel like a fresh kill on the desert with the vultures hovering over me. Sorry, I guess that sort of feeling just is one of my weaknesses which developed in my youth as a sort of result from intellectual as well as physical bullying.
Ken
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Deej
Didn't timmy mean the gender difference was in the MEANING? You maintain if the spelling is unchanged then there is no teachable difference..? You all know more about this than I do...
Deeej wrote> "If there is no actual physical distinction then it is impossible to teach them, impossible for native speakers (except those who have studied the Germanic roots) to know about, and impossible to record in current grammar books; hence for all practical purposes genders do not exist"
Teddy!!
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Ted:
>Didn't timmy mean the gender difference was in the MEANING?
No. The meaning of a statement what is means to other people. If no-one is aware of the difference, and there is no way of making anyone aware of it (in the language as it stands at the moment), then it doesn't exist.
>You maintain if the spelling is unchanged then there is no teachable difference..?
Yes, provided there is no pronounciation difference or syntactical difference either. The only way to "teach" it would be to study an earlier version of English where the differences were visible. But that is not required for a comprehensive understanding of modern English.
David
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You two are off on some thought I don't even follow!
However Simon wrote> "Do you think that vulgar and funny coincide very often? Rude and nasty tend, to my way of thinking, to be funnier."
I think this self evaluation has been evident on this board.
Vulgarity combined with humor is COMMON in the U.S. south. We joke about asses & spitting & pissing & crap & beer that just raises the intellectual climate to about +1 degree centigrade!
TeddyB
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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>Do you think that vulgar and funny coincide very often? Rude and nasty tend, to my way of thinking, to be funnier.
To my mind, rude and nasty aren't funny; they are just embarrassing. I think it's an American-British thing: the British prefer understatement, the Americans prefer overstatement.*
I like my humour intelligent, witty, satirical, ironic; sometimes scathing and black, but never when turned against the audience; hence usually within the bounds of good taste. Rude only where it subverts social conventions, never offensive just for the sake of being offensive.
Sorry for taking your statement out of context, Simon.
David
*Though who knows? There are actually people in the UK who like Little Britain. Heaven help them.
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Deeej wrote:
> I like my humour intelligent, witty, satirical, ironic; sometimes scathing and black, but never when turned against the audience; hence usually within the bounds of good taste. Rude only where it subverts social conventions, never offensive just for the sake of being offensive.
and I'm waiting....
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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For a demonstration of intelligent, witty, satirical, ironic; sometimes scathing and black humor, but never when turned against the audience; hence usually within the bounds of good taste.
I'm still waiting
Regards-
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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I didn't say I was capable of it. I meant I appreciated it.
Your sarcasm was a bit too obvious, by the way. Even if, in my infinite lack of wisdom, I failed to notice it the first time.
David
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Another question about point of view.
Smile Deeej!
Regards
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
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No Message Body
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13818
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An "English" as a language.
It is by no means a pure language. Influences in no particular order include:
Various Norse tongues
French
Gaelic
Celtic
Latin (which is also influenced by Greek)
Germanic tongues
That the gender has fallen into disuse does not mean it is not present. Declension of nouns has fallen into disuse, too, but we decline pronouns.
Since a ship (or boat) is female we do retain the concept of a noun that has no sex having a gender.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy,
>It is by no means a pure language.
True, if by pure you mean unaffected by outside influences. I have already agreed with you on that. I'm not sure how it supports your point.
>That the gender has fallen into disuse does not mean it is not present. Declension of nouns has fallen into disuse, too, but we decline pronouns.
Perhaps we are going to argue until the cows come home, but I contend that if something has fallen into disuse, in language terms, it does not exist any more. Several people have made the point that English is what speakers make of it -- well, ask any English speaker. Do they know that gender exists? Do they know which words are assigned a particular gender? Not unless they have studied the language when it did exist. Otherwise they can't use it, they can't teach it, they can't be taught it, and it doesn't exist any more.
I am not saying, and never have said, that gender has never existed in the Anglo-Saxon/English language.
>Since a ship (or boat) is female we do retain the concept of a noun that has no sex having a gender.
(Female refers to sex. Feminine refers to gender.)
Only when referring to a particular ship. That is why I say that it is anthropomorphism and not genuine assignment of gender. (Incidentally, you are guilty of anthropomorphism yourself when using the word "female" instead of "feminine". In linguistic terms there is a big difference.)
People sometimes assign a male name to their car -- and then their car becomes "masculine". I've known several people who have done it. But others would refer to their car as "she", or feel bound to giving it a female name. Hardly consistent -- it is more arbitrary than anything, and that is why I say it is not "real" gender. In French "a car" (la voiture) is feminine regardless of the pet name assigned to it (even if it is a male name).
Ships do, by convention, take "she" -- but much more frequently they take "it", the neuter. There is still confusion there. If there were genuine gender they would be referred to as "she" all the time.
David
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Ken, please explain! 
