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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13828
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I suppose they may, some of them, have found your plight "amusing". Other reasons for laughter are horror. We laugh to cover our confusion at what is going on.
That doesn't mean the victim knows that
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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>I have been here for some great while now. Haven't you noticed?
Well, it's still nice to know you, Marc. 
David
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Marc, you know Im your friend. When you told me what happened and I read what happened, I cried. That should never have happened. It reminded me of the Romans in the collisium enjoying the horror being played our in front of them. The people who did that to you and the ones who laughed, have secured themselves a place in hell. You said this was like telling a kid with a gun in his mouth, just one quick squeez. I was that kid with a gun in his mouth. My best friend stopped me. He jambed his finger behind the trigger and made me talk about what was wrong and who hurt me. It doesnt upset me to see this discussed, cause maybe then others can know the kind of hurt gay kids have that make suicide a better deal. I told Timmy everybody should be required to read Misfit. Maybe they could understand what makes us do these things. The Money thing should be known and should be critisized. That way, parents wont be so quick to let a doctor do what he did. They would wait and see how the child develops. I dont think there is anyone here laughing. What I think is that there are a lot of us who wish they had been there and could have stopped it, could have made others see how terribly wrong it was.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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To Marc...
Dear Sir... You are not alone in your fight.. Life is a gigantic struggle to some of us...I have maybe spent more days wishing it was not than I have been contented..
Dear brother marc & friend Kevy..I wish I could help..alas we ultimately struggle alone.. Yet our experience is shared in part by others who also struggle to whatever degree.. My older brother once mentioned about anger that he had to fight against it.. That stuck in my mind.. And I continue to try to stand & fight the bad feelings.. to keep my head on straight so-to-speak.. and that dear bro of mine has been on drugs & disability pension for mental illness many years..
I pray to whatever Higher Power there is that He give my friend Marc some relief from the trauma that accompanies him yet to this day.. As a prisoner of war who's scarred by his mistreatment.. we appear normal on the outside..yet inside no one but God knows our crazy feelings..
Marc I know you will hang in there..I know life often seems not worth living..yet I've been too chicken to discontinue it.. and it does slowly get better for me.. I'm sorry for the pain you still feel..and you asked us to just let it lie..I'm sorry to have continued it..
if I were near I would've hugged you.. if you'd let me.. That stuff will be dealt with one day.. recompense will be required..it will be one day straightened out.. Man! Hang in there just one more day.. you are appreciated by more than u realize.. though that does zilch to lessen your pains..
If there is a higher power in charge over this earth & he doesn't straighten out all wrongs & iniquity ultimately..then he's worth less than sh*t.. but I know that this aint so..though not in our time..he will make it right..you may rest assured..you will be rewarded for what you've endured & the character you've attained. you are stronger in some ways than many on this earth..your life will not be wasted.. your experiences will be as lessons..and your knowledge will be put to use.
All i can do now is love & encourage..& I know there is little that can be said to help one so despairing.. it is endurance pure & simple. A dark cloud & maddening dreams & thoughts from a higher evil power that we have no strength against.. I pray God to remove this trial from our friend now..He cannot endure much more..& what good does it attain?? Flesh & blood have now power against such adversity.. spare him now ..return calm thoughts & mind to Marc again.
Man I stand here for you.. and stop my life to think of you.. distant tho close in emotions..I know what u struggle against.. that which has tormented me since youth. A lesser man would call it quits by now! You're to be respected & admired by all..
Silence & patience as we stand with our friend here..
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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This post is, in a sense, directed towards Marc, but not with any critical intention. Only the thickest-skinned and most self-orientated specimens of mankind could remain unmoved by the horrendous experiences he has suffered. I am not presuming what I cannot know, but I would guess that those experiences may colour his thinking more deeply than even Marc himself realises. I wholly accept much of what Marc has to say but, when we enter the field of moral philosophy, wider principles need to be examined. Without (I hope) expanding the post to a full-blown thesis, I’ll try to comment on the various constructive points made so far, and to explain why there are some respects in which I cannot agree with Marc, even though he has all my sympathy.
First of all, I wholeheartedly agree that the aspects of the human condition which are least well understood will attract the least scrupulous researchers – though the vast majority of those in the medical profession do apply meticulous standards in their work. The less scrupulous are motivated by precisely the same objectives as any other ambitious individual in the academic or entrepreneurial fields – the quest for respect, status and wealth in whatever proportions they consider appropriate. The way to achieve those objectives is to acquire a reputation; that is what will lead to preferment, professorship and every other form of success. The easiest way to acquire a reputation is to display expertise in a field where goalposts are moveable and the competition is minimal. If you can do that in a climate in which the ‘right’ conclusions will enable you to obtain political support from a powerful faction in the community, then so much the better. Research into sexuality is thus a honeypot for those whose self-interest potentially outweighs their ethics. They are not the direct successors of the Victorian pill merchants, because they are not charlatans. They do have medical qualifications but their weakness is a predisposition to pursue a given agenda by doing as Dr. Money did, and seeing only that evidence which they wish to see. So, as I said in my previous post, research into gender orientation needs to be carefully weighed to distinguish between conclusions which are statistically significant and conclusions which are little more than flights of fancy.
I cannot however accept Marc’s assertion that someone who has not shared his experience cannot have ‘one iota of a clue’ what that experience was like. That is manifestly untrue – personal experience is not a precondition of understanding. I am not belittling the horrors of his experience, and I am very glad that I have not shared it, but I think that any humane, imaginative and intelligent individual can go a long way down the road of understanding. It is often those who are appalled by what has happened to their fellow-men who prove to be most effective in protecting others from similar suffering. William Wilberforce, the English Member of Parliament, was never a slave; he was in fact a very rich man. Nevertheless he, more than any other individual, was responsible for the abolition of legal slavery, first in the British West Indies and thereafter throughout the civilised world.
Moving on to NW’s post, I agree with his analysis, except that the history of what has happened to date is, I think, of crucial importance in making ethical judgements for the future. I entirely accept his implied proposition that it would be wrong for medical science to seek to change someone’s gender orientation, but the members of this community are inevitably biased. To a substantial part of the population, being gay is not essentially different from having a cleft palate; it’s a condition which will render the sufferer’s life more difficult. If a cleft palate can be repaired, then why not a same-sex orientation? In purely philosophical terms, I think that NW is right, though it is perfectly possible to mount a logical counter-argument. At a more practical level, however, the evidence of past failures and the righteous indignation which those failures engender provides the strongest available argument against attempting to interfere with orientation.
Marc asks what conclusions should be drawn for those who have been past victims. Obviously, they are all entitled to sympathetic understanding, but I would intuitively expect that on their part a prime concern would be to avoid others suffering as they have done. I fully realise that for some, the trauma is too great to enable them to take an active campaigning role, but I would suggest that it is open to anyone to choose to avoid such participation. I cannot however see that there can be a moral justification for inhibiting discussion among others. This forum is small but, as Timmy has pointed out, the views expressed here may well exert a significantly wider influence. Even if they do not, they help to educate our own small group, and within that group Marc’s personal experiences provide a powerful motivation to learn.
The one thing I simply can’t accept from Marc is his oft-repeated mantra: “So you want to know why you are gay? You are gay for the same reason heteros are str8. Because you are....”. It may work for him, but he has no right to expect it to work for others. Yes, if asked, I would assure someone who is gay that it was neither something for which he was in any way responsible nor something which he could change. I believe that to be true, but I do not and cannot KNOW it to be true, because I do not know what causes a person to be gay. Until we do have an answer, it is inevitable that many will be frustrated. That is part of the human condition; we have a collective need to understand the world and our place in it. For some, this curiosity is stronger than for others, but it is the right of every individual to seek greater knowledge. ‘Because you are’ has overtones of childhood – the response of a parent who, for one reason or another, does not wish to explain.
Turning to David R.’s response to my initial post, I’m generally comfortable with his observations. The stuff about brain structure and function IS interesting, and the answers we seek might well lie in this area, but for the moment there’s a woeful lack of independent corroborative research. That’s why I argued that much of what is said in the entry is mere speculation. As regards the birth order hypothesis, I seem to recollect that a report was linked from this forum in one of our previous discussions. Personally, I think it’s a hoot! If it were truly valid, homosexuality would be rampant in Roman Catholic Western Europe (Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, South Germany, Irish Republic) where larger families are the norm, as compared with Protestant Western Europe (North Germany, Holland, Denmark, Scandinavia and the United Kingdom) where the average family size is very significantly smaller. I am unaware of any evidence whatsoever to confirm this bias, and my own experience (admittedly not carried out scientifically!) suggests that, if anything, the opposite is true. The fetal cell explanation is certainly a possibility, if the basic hypothesis can be supported, but of course in larger families siblings have less privacy, and increased sexual contact may equally be a factor. The short answer, once again, is that the research has not yet been sufficiently underpinned by independent studies elsewhere.
In conclusion, I stress again my sympathy for what Marc has suffered. I would do anything in my power – and I mean that literally, not just as a platitude – to prevent the same thing happening to anyone else. But what we have been discussing in this thread – or at least what I have been trying to discuss – is the broader picture of the confusion between proven fact and wild theorisation in the study of homosexuality. Knowledge of the dark days of Money and his kind is essential for an understanding of the present situation, but although things have improved there is still a long way to go. And no-one can reach that goal unless they walk the road.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Gee Cossie, I think you make my point of arguing about this gay orientation origins when you state:
"We are left with a possible hypothesis not mentioned in the text – that genetics may create a predisposition to homosexuality, but an environmental factor is required in order to ‘throw the switch’. What further research has been conducted in this area? If there is none – why?"
This was exactly what I was getting at in my round about generally fucked up way of saying it. You are actually pointing out all the reasons I have to pick fault with a lot of the conclusions made on both sides of this issue. We are better off to say there is no real correlation and I think what you said about it above here is probably the best conclusion to draw.
I am fairly positive that all the gays I know never wanted to be gay. I dont think we choose being gay any more than we would choose to be born in a ghetto or in some kind of other circumstance. Now why cant there just be some kind of reasoned thinking like yours at all levels? It would save a lot of grief.
Ken
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Damn Cossie you are one of the most articulate people I have met so far! You say it very well and along with what was said by Handyman and others it says it all. We all want to give Marc a hug and he might not survive them all!
Marc, a long time ago (almost 6 years ago) I read your story which you posted on this site. I came as close to crying as I ever have in my life; I don't know why but I didnt even cry when my mother died.
I remember that all you had ever done was to think about having some kind of sexual encounter with your friend and had never actually done anything when all that stuff happened in your life. I may have gotten it wrong, but I think that was about the truth of it. You suffered greatly and if I die before you and can ask anything of God I will ask him to lift all that from you and free you from it all.
We all need to know who and what we are Marc and I guess that is all we are trying to figure out. None of us would want to further any of your pain for sure. All I can say is that reading your story changed my life in some ways and made me see things a lot different than I had. If I had the guts to do it, I would have all my str8t friends read it too.
Ken
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