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A few yeas ago I studied religion(s), maybe it was some twisted thoughts of hiding myself that way. Now I am not saying being a priest is twisted, just that my motives were as much about my own fears as anything else. So I studied.
I found that many faiths had basic things in common. Many of those commonalities have stuck with me to this day. But I also found some that told me that who I was, a gay kid, was wrong. Years later after I had decided that I would not align myself with any one particular faith (though I was brought up Catholic), and kept searching for truth in spirituality.
A couple years ago I found out that my cousin was a lesbian.My Uncle, (he lives kinda far away) is a devout Catholic and was having a hard time with that. On one of his trips to visit us I decided to try and help. I put him in touch with Bishop Gumbleton.
Now the Bishop is not gay himself, but he does have a gay brother. He told a story of his Mom at a party some years back. She was nearing the end of her life and she knew it. She was making an attempt to put her affairs in order. She pulled the Bishop aside at the party and with a somewhat shakey voice asked if Sam (not his real name) was going to heaven. The Bishop said he had "an instant answer" like it came from somewhere else. Without even thinking about it he said to his mother "God would never punish us for the way he made us".
This seemed to help my Uncle a bit and also helped in my search for spirtuality. I had some other major events in this search that I spoke about last year. This was just one of many.
I believe spirituality is very important and some use religion to attain it. I say more power to them, Gods speed,and all that. I respect people right to practice their faith as they see fit, so long as they don't seek to imose their views on me.
This was a very long hard journey for me. But it was worth it.
Have any of you delt with the conflict that being gay has as it relates to you faith (or lack thereof)? How did you resolve it? Or do you still struggle?
I am also curious to hear your perspective on different faiths as you see them. Maybe I can learn a little more along with you.
Thanks for listening.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I regained it during a christian service in a christian cathedral, but I did not regain it as a christian. Instead I realised that, for me, there is a a god who loves me, and who created me as I am for reasons I am unable to understand. I may question the reasons, but I have no chance of changing them.
I wonder if that comes anywhere near answering your musing?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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That is a truth for you. So of course it's correct. Thanks for sharing.
Your friend for life and maybe even after that,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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smith
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On fire! |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 1095
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day to ask after sitting in youth class discussing how much sin I have in my life and how God can take it away if I just pray hard enough. But, you know what? I don't pray for that.....I never pray in that building, not anymore. They say that no matter what's "wrong" with you, you can pray really hard and God wil fix it.
They preach that man is made in the image of God. They preach that God loves all and forgives all. Okay..I've got that down. But, his so-called "children" do not love all or forgive all. They don't forgive anything and why should I care? Hell must be really crowded if every person who was ever different has to go there.
I read this somewhere: "I was taught we were all born with original sin and we could never achieve forgiveness. I wonder what my sin was?"
To me, faith is something you believe in that makes you feel loved and accepted and happy. I see God in the sunrise and the woods, the animals and maybe one day in someone's eyes.
Do I have faith? Yes. How do I resolve my conflicts? I don't. Do I still struggle. Ayup.
Sunday is not a good day for me...sorry smith
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Is why you ended your post with an appology....
What is there for you to feel sorry about?
You wrote.... "To me, faith is something you believe in that makes you feel loved and accepted and happy. I see God in the sunrise and the woods, the animals and maybe one day in someone's eyes."
This is so true.... When I feel the need to be close to God.... I find a place that lets me think clearly and without interuption.... I speak my piece and then I listen for my answer.... It is always there, in the trees and sky and fuzzy little animals.... That is where my faith is....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I'm another that sees God in all aroud me - in the sky , the grass, the insects and if you like, furry animals. I can't conceive that this has all happened by chance:-??? All the major religions have the same tenets " to love God and your neighbour as yourself" That's what I try to do and if I want to talk to God I go and find a nice quiet corner in the garden or further afield. Consequently being gay doesn't bother me because that's how He made me. What bothers me is how others view me.
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Wavering Faith
Lord, sometimes I'm deep in despair
And I can't find you anywhere.
It's at those times I feel
That perhaps you're not really real.
That you don't really care about me
That I'm drifting alone on life's sea.
I cry out to you for peace
But I find no release
From the fear and dread
That weighs heavy on my head
Weighing down my soul
When I want to be made whole.
But just when I think I'm at the end
Of my rope, and I'll never mend
You come and whisper to me,
"Child, I never left, you see!
I've been here all along,
Waiting for you to see you're wrong!"
It is then that I understand
That I tried to do it with my own hand.
To wait on the Lord is best,
I was running after my own quest,
"Father, I'm sorry, please forgive!
May I trust you as long as I live!"
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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smith wrote: sitting in youth class discussing how much sin I have in my life and how God can take it away if I just pray hard enough. But, you know what? I don't pray for that.....I never pray in that building, not anymore. They say that no matter what's "wrong" with you, you can pray really hard and God wil fix it.
My religion has a different take than that experienced by smith. If I do something wrong God will not 'fix it': "You made the mess, you clear it up!" We all do wrong - most especially towards other people. Only we can fix it: we must go to them and set things right. Only after I have tried to make the person I offended happier will I merit God's forgiveness. This, at any rate, is the teaching of my own faith.
They preach that man is made in the image of God. They preach that God loves all and forgives all. Okay..I've got that down. But, his so-called "children" do not love all or forgive all. They don't forgive anything
The gods of the ancient world were 'man writ large'; my faith says that man should strive to be 'God writ small' - loving and forgiving. If God can forgive everything so should those who believe in God be able to forgive anything and everything. (This assumes that the offender recognises his fault, regrets it and has tried to make amends.)
I read this somewhere: "I was taught we were all born with original sin and we could never achieve forgiveness. I wonder what my sin was?"
My religion teaches that there is no such thing as 'original sin'. All my sins originate with me!
Part of my religious philosophy you will find below the line here.
As to Kevin's original question (hi, Kevin!): I agree with Mike (hi Mike!) that I have no problem with the God who made me as I am; I do have a problem with people who might not accept me as I am.
I am not sure that I have made much sense and, like Charlie, I apologise if I sound 'preachy': I do my best 
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I'm still technically connected to one of the Protestant denominations. My family are very diverse, from Catholic to fundamentalist Baptist. My partner is a Buddhist. Professionally, I work with survivors of religious abuse, and have even supervised a really neat group of rabbi's. I am a bit of each of those traditions (except the fundy one, which I rejected when I was about 6 years old), sort of like a patchwork quilt.
That diverse background helps me understand different religious and spiritual points of view without having to take any of it personally.
My grandmother was a very wise lady. We once discussed the different faiths and why they were so dissimilar. She pointed to the night sky and said that the whole horizon was God's Universe, but that each religion looked at only one small piece of the total sky. I have always treasured that image.
My belief is that people should work on internalizing their own authority, and not depend on any external authorities for their salvation. YOU are the expert on your soul. YOU need to determine what feels true to you, and only YOU can determine what is spiritually nurturing for yourself.
One of Man's Buddhist teachers once described Christianity (he made no distinctions between Catholic or Protestant) as an interesting young religion with some prospects for the future, but which takes itself far too seriously right now. I like that.
Kevin...interesting books on this stuff are to be found by the dozens nowadays...there are hordes of questioning people, which is great.
"Wrestling With the Angel: Spirtual Journies of Gay Men"
"Queer Dhamma" about gay Buddhist thinking
"The Jew and the Lotus" comparing jewish and Buddhist thought
"God's Bullies" about Falwell and his bunch
"The Birth of the Living God" by psychoanalyst Ana-Maria Rizzuto, about how psychology can teach us about how different religious beliefs develop in people. She takes no position on any of the beliefs themselves, just studies the psychological history of the people, and what they ended up believing spiritually.
ANY book by Episcopalian Bishop Spong. "Why the Church Must Change or Die", "Saving the Bible From Fundamentalism", etc.
My old teacher John McNeill, the founder of Dignity, wrote a lot about gays in the Christian tradition as well. "The Church and the Homosexual" got him tossed out of the Jesuits. "Taking a Chance on God", and his wonderful auto-biography, wickedly (on purpose) entitled "With Both feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air: My Spiritual Journey".
Writing about this is far from new, of course. I just re-read Blaise Pascal's "Pensees" (Reflections), from a couple hundred years ago...hehe
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Steve--Your post ment a lot to me.I hope you dont mind if I printed it out...rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I have to agree, it made a lot of sense to me too.
To forgive a transgression is to walk in the sun.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Have any of you delt with the conflict that being gay has as it relates to you faith (or lack thereof)? How did you resolve it? Or do you still struggle?
I am also curious to hear your perspective on different faiths as you see them. Maybe I can learn a little more along with you.
this is going to sound a bit "ego," and i don't mean it to be; you'll see why. my faith, and the beliefs that i follow, SEEM to be (i could be wrong, and there are ALWAYS exceptions) very tolerant, if not THE most tolerant, to the gay lifestyle, or any alternative lifestyle, or non-typical gender or race, etc. perhaps it's because paganism is so misconstrued, assumed to be what it's not, is under fire, what have you ... so why would us pagans (or, us pagans who are mixed with a shot of agnostic!) judge someone for their sexual preference? we believe in all things natural. some faiths will argue that homosexuality is not "natural" however ... the pagans believe (and i said this elsewhere) the heart wants what the heart wants. they, WE believe that you will be attracted to what you are supposed to be attracted to, and what that winds up being may not be what other faiths or people think you are "supposed" to be attracted to.
sometimes during the summertime (last year i didn't, i was too ill) i meet up with a coven south of here, and i practise with them. and that can be anything from moon rites to the summer equinox to simply dancing in circles and singing. some nights, in the park in grand haven, they simply stay there until nightfall playing drums, humming, singing. loving. there are two gay male couples in this coven. they said they've never felt more welcome.
i know that each faith has an exception. i'm sure that not all catholic/baptist/what have you families would frown on their son or daughter coming out; some more "christian" oriented churches, who pull away from strict catholocism (sp?), are more tolerant. and that's fine, and i understand that. but i know that with my faith, and the people i work with, the coven that blessed me the night i decided that yes, this is the path i wanted, that felt safe and right, and like home (not unlike a baptism), i have never felt more accepting. it's all love and light. family and friendship. we have the families we are born with, and then we have the family members that we choose.
it was said in the movie "it's my party" : "in the gay community, we get to choose our own family, and HE chose US." in reference to nick, who was dying. it's the same way with my faith, and in turn, they accept the fact that homosexuality is NOT a curse, is NOT a sin, and they not only accept it, but also embrace it.
as far as the struggle of being gay, or coming out with being gay (or bi, because that is just as hard for many to accept...), it had less to do with MY faith, and more to do with the faith my parents/brother have been raised under. well, i was raised under the same, and my brother is basically a self-proclaimed atheist now, but still. i struggle because of what THEIR faiths dictate (parents, grandparents), and what my brother has learned through that to ... not be WRONG? but be "not right." i love him to death, but he IS mildly homo-phobic. he wasn't until this guy at the hospital *relentlessly* persued him. and now it's not that he is a "hater"? it's just it makes him uncomfortable. he shows no malice, it's always just a small sort of look, like not scared but uncomfortable, and then "can we talk of something else?" in an almost pleading voice.
but i don't struggle for faith reasons. mostly i struggle against what's been ingrained in their heads from their faiths/experience.
i wandered, are we surprised that i wandered? LOL! if anyone wants me to be more specific, please ask.
my void does not want.
-- 2.13.61.
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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AA has taught me a very wonderful thing and that was to add (OF MY UNDERSTANDING) to his or her name..That made ALL things possible....rob
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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More thumbs up...People that love are the luckiest people of all...rob
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I struggle with ya.
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Thanks for sharing that.
Great to see you again.
Much love to you all your days,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Although it does vary from denomination from denomination and from sect to sect, “Christian” teachings (note the quotation marks) are fraught with contradictions, and smith brings up what has always been for me among the most glaring of them. It’s this whole conflict between the concept of being created in the image of God vs. the concept of Original Sin. If we are all created in the image of God (that is, perfect), then how can we be born with sin of any kind? What did we do (or could possibly have done for that matter) to be guilty of any sin?
From this springs the dueling ideas that even though God loves everybody, nobody will (because of Original Sin) ever achieve true forgiveness (Baptism supposedly takes care of Original Sin, but it would seem it really doesn’t). If God created us in his own image, then why would he hate anybody created in that image? It’s thoughts like these which run through my mind whenever, for example, I see anti-gay protestors on the news (a recent instance was at the opening of that new public high school for gay students in New York) with their picket signs saying “God hates fags”. If God truly loves everybody, then that can only mean that he doesn’t hate anybody (especially for the way he himself created them; and why would he hold anybody responsible for the simple act of being born in the first place)? Just more irrational, hate-filled (and therefore un-Godlike) contradiction, in my view.
What is truly sinful, I feel, is to teach this hateful and hurtful dogma, especially to children. I’d like to believe that, if there is a Hell, then it is indeed filled with those who devoted their lives to the perpetuation of these perverted ideals, not those whose only “crime” was to be born and be the way God (for his own reasons) made them and intended them to be.
So the church’s simple (and simplistic) solution to all this is to continue to pray hard and God will take care of everything. What constitutes “praying hard”? I’m afraid I’ve come to the conclusion that “praying hard” means perfect attendance on Sunday mornings or Wednesday evenings or whenever, putting more than your fair share in the collection plate when it’s passed around, and then go out and get others to come and do likewise.
I’m sorry, but I refuse to submit myself to such greed and lust for domination. I, too, long ago gave up trying to find any truth, meaning or spirituality from some preacher at the pulpit, some icon or statue, or a string of rosary beads (can you tell by now, by the way, that I was “raised Catholic”?), because for me it just isn’t there. I, too, find it in such things as sunrises, forests, animals, nature in general, and hopefully someday (at long, long last!) in someone’s eyes.
Thus endeth my “rant”. As always: *hugs* thanks, smith; I needed that (and may you soon gain resolution to those conflicts, relief from that struggle, and above all those eyes to find it all in).
We do not remember days...we remember moments.
Cesare Pavese
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I will post a response in the form of questions.
When questioning about your faith, why do you talk or ask of religion? Does being faithful mean you believe in God? In Mohammed? In Jesus Christ? In Sol? In humankind? In yourself? In love?
Do you or someone else determine your actions and beliefs?
Can a book written over many hundreds of years, with an untold number of authors, translated numerous times by different people in different times not contradict itself in thousands of ways? Which book am I talking about? The Bible? The Koran? The Torah?
Hugs, Charlie
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I would love to discuss this with you because I think it has merit. Any idea is worth consideration.
Could you describe the difference between faith and religion?
For me I find spirituality a better word for my relationship with God (or whatever each of you may call him/her). My spirituality is a very personal thing. It has no more or less merit than anyone else's. As far as someone else determining my beliefs. Here is my answer to that:
My beliefs come from me, and me alone. However, I am not so arrogant that I cannot learn from someone else. Each time I read your views, or any other opinion, I choose to try and learn from it. That helps to shape my views. So even you have an influence on me. Because I respect your opinion. I may agree, or I may decide that I do not agree, but I learn that others have a different view so I am better for it if I choose to consider a different way of thinking. Think of the comments that God may be found in nature (I paraphrase here), I agree totally with that. Not that that particular view belongs to a faith, but it belongs to me. That is part of my sprituality. I also believe that how I treat my fellow man will determine wether I am a good person or not. Who I choose to love, wether I call myself a Christian, a Jew, a Buddist, or a Muslim really has no berring on it. I practice my faith in front of you all. Because that is just who I am. How does self-determination figure into that, I am not qualified to answer that for anyone but me. I just know that my reason for being is to make the world a better place, in any small way I can.
To Steve and Charlie:
Betcha don't sound preachy after ME!!!! hehe
Keep it up I love to hear from you.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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That's not nice. I like stirring the pot, not being cooked in it. )
Seriously, it is only fair that I give my own opinion since I did raise the question.
Religion is easy to define. It is an organized (in some manner) group of people who generally believe the same about a Supreme Being, a scripture, and a moral structure. It is usually named and has a finiteness (is that a word??) to it.
Faith to me is gossamer. It is defined by my beliefs which come from my environment, teaching, and experience as interpreted by my brain and senses which help me determine why, what, and how I live.
Most who lived previously and most who live now do believe in some entity they consider the Supreme Being. There are many names, depending on religion and faith. Even most multideistic groups do have one supreme deity. Personally, I think that this is almost required thinking in order to maintain some type of sanity and moral order.
Gays (and any other oppressed group) have problems with religion because of the institutional nature and religious canons that guide those groups. Religions tend to attempt to convert or, if unsuccessful in conversion, shun those that are outside their sphere of beliefs. However, I believe that anyone who truly loves themself and their fellow man does not have a problem with faith, as that is the total substance of their moral fiber.
Don't know if I answered your question, but it is what I believe. BTW, I was raised and still am (though inactive) a memeber of the Methodist Church.
Hugs, Charlie
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Thanks Charlie,
For me I seperate this topic into three distict catagories. Religion, faith, and spirituality. The latter is what I have chosen to describe my feelings and beliefs in this area.
I can describe each one of these words as I see them, but I feel them to be to contorversial for this forum. When we mature, maybe we can discuss it again. Again, this is not a slam on anyone, just how I feel.
Be happy.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I'll have a go at this.
faith
A private inner knowledge founded often simply on trust. Faith is the certainty that something exists without necessarily ever seeing the proof. It is a knowledge, in this case, of a deity, manifested internally in a highly personal manner. Faith in this case may be seen to be irrational because it is based upon a "non scientific" explanation for "natural" phenomena.
religion
A public and organised expression of a declared particluar faith which involves adherence either to private or public formalised rituals, religion has come to signify a "belonging" in a tribal sense.
peculiarities
Put simply one may have faith without religion, and one may have religion without faith. One may even have a religion and a faith whoch are diametrically opposed. Each is independent of the other, yet religion was created around faith initially. This apparent paradox exists because of religion's "tribal belonging" nature.
Whereas a person may be included or excluded from a social group because of religion (a public expression of the local and current faith), no-one will be excluded or welcomed because of their faith unless that faith is expressed publicly. [In this case public expression associates faith with a religin, or with no religion at all, and is thus "tribally acceptable or unacceptable]
sects
These confuse matters. Two major sects in Christianity are Roman Catholicism (allegedly "original and best, but for some not since Latin was removed) and Protestantism (in all its various sub-sects), and these have grown large enough to be considered a religion in their own right. A better view might be to look within the Christain church (religion) at Presbeterians and Methodists. However one soon finds subdivisions of those, which again confuses matters.
There are also non-religious sects. The cult of Scientology was invented as a money making scheme by L Ron Hubbard. It professes religious-like tenets, yet is based on cash, not on a deity, depsite major protestation to the contrary.
I could go on. And on.
It is likely that I have now offended the scientologists. "Them" I will offend willingly, but I will not offend a single member as an individual unless they choose to take personal offence. Anyone who finds these definitions distasteful should remember that they are my own definitions, and may thus be based upon my life experiences (hence faith?). They are thus highly personal, but may strike a good or bad chord in you.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I'd like to say in advance that all I say here is my view and my view alone and I don't mean it as an attack on any religion and/or faith.
I was born jewish and brought up as one. I was never very religios although I did learn a lot about it and other religions out of interest.
I noticed that although almost all religions proclaim they are based on love they do not show it. MY expirience (and I repeat MY) has tought me that the major religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) with which I have come into contact take themselves too seriously and are all sure they are the only ones whom are right. Throughout their histories you can see a lote of hate (born of fear mostly) and persecutions and only very rearly the love they all claim to have.
Today I am Pagan. Many different little belives that all have in common love and respect for one another and nature. This is where I found myself. Even here my beliefs are personal and different from most others but now although this is so, or you could say, because this is so I am respected and excepted as I am.
Does any of this have to do with me being gay? I'd have to answer yes although I can't be sure if that was a decisive factor or not.
I'd like to appologise if I hurt anyone with what I have written here for that was not the intent - these are just my personal views...
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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My definitions (with comments):
Many religious people confuse belief with knowledge. You believe something that you cannot prove, even to yourself, however strong your belief is. In that sense all belief is irrational. If I can prove something to be true I don't have to believe it: I know it. Therefore, all religious belief should come with a big dollop of healthy doubt. The ancient sages of my own religion advised: "teach your tongue how to say 'I do not know'."
Religion comes from the Latin verb 'to bind': someone who is religious binds themselves to a set of norms and behaviour patterns. It is adherence to these norms that creates and maintains the 'religion'. It is in that sense (and only in that sense) that Confucianism can be called a religion.
There is a certain mindset that distinguishes (unfortunately) the three great monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam - at least in their most representative formulations. Belief in one sole deity gave rise to a conviction that my truth is the truth and it must be imposed on all others for their own benefit.
It just so happens that at this time I am reading a book and in it I found the following written (60 years ago!):
What is important in the present context, however, is the fact that exaltation of the One made it possible for cruelty to develop on a religious basis. God's glory, name and sacra became the highest values; an offence against them is the supreme crime which justifies any punishment. Biblical Israel devoted the enemies of God to destruction; Christianity destroyed idolators and heretics for the glory of God; Islam fought holy wars. Precisely because of its exclusiveness monotheism can be ruthless.
Here endeth today's lesson ...::-)
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Ron,
I love your take on things sometimes.
And I miss you on AIM.
Hope you are well.
And much love to you everyday,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Timmy,
I did the exact same thing as you. Once I came out to myself, my heart opened up to God, and I am now completely at peace with myself... and life... and God.
I was made by Him this way. He made me gay for a reason. I am not quite sure why, but my heart is so at peace with Him now, that there isn't much that rattles me in life anymore.
Thanks for sharing that Timmy.
((((Hugs)))))
BamBam
Celebrate your life... embrace your love... Become intimate with your place in forever !!!
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smith,
A little addition to what I wrote you personally in email...
It is not a building, a religion, a tradition... it is between you and God Himself.
As for me: when I pray, it is as if He and I are in a room together alone. He knows me, and I try to know Him... but I do respect Him, and love Him.
You are the best my friend !!!!!!! Remember that !!!!!
Warms Hugs and Peace...
Bam
Celebrate your life... embrace your love... Become intimate with your place in forever !!!
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The history of the original sin idea is quite twisted and complicated...and for me, totally irrelevant. I have never believed that particular theory, even when a child who wasn't thinking deeply, it just didn't ever make sense.
And there are plenty of good Christian people who also do not believe in the original sin dogma! They focus instead on the Original Blessing of God in the first place, and do not emphasise the whole idea of the "Fall from Grace".
A very readable book about this is called "Original Blessing" by an Anglican/Episcopalian writer called Matthew Fox. It's a classic, always in print.
"Always forgive your enemies...nothing annoys them quite so much." Oscar Wilde
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A question of faith ............ 
Do I struggle? Sunday being a very good....... 
Re: My take, FWIW 
Against my better judgement.. 
You want me to answer my own question??? 