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I have a question that been bothering me for some time that about this place . Well is it that some of you here bend over backwards to keep people that hurt other here ? But when others are hurt by something said here , and leaves so they don't get hurt again . Nothing is done to get them back or to keep them here . So if this is really A Place of Safety for everyone , why isn't it done for everyone that come here or for those that were here for a long time ?
When I first came to this place , it was a great place to be . But now and I did see your hate story before . And I can say that there is hate at this message board now and there never was before .. ( this is my point of view )
I hope the members of this board can answer this for me without hate in their answers .
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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The main answer is that normally people do not make a song and a dance about leaving. They also don't usually make a song and a dance about arriving.
So I treat them people who are welcome to come and go as they please. I don't tend to mourn them (in public at least). I don't chase after them in private or in public, and I don't mention it either. I tend to expect that their need was either fulfilled or was not meetable here.
I don't bend over backwards to keep people that hurt others here. I know precisely what you are saying and about the several souls where it may have looked that way. Only they know what I say to them behind the scenes, but I can assure you it is very plain speaking. I am sure you will never feel that side of me, but it is not an easy set of messages to receive.
Instead I recognise that each person has needs. I cannot meet those needs alone, but we can collectively. And those who vanish as some sort of "I can't stay if they stay" protest (and we have had a few of those) may go with my blessing, because that is also a form of blackmail. Those who go quietly are not always the most helpful by their actions, because they allow the one who hurt them to hold sway. "For evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing". We are none of us too special for that message.
The person who hurts is often someone lashing out in despair. Should I kick them out, then?
I think not.
Should I run after those who vanish quietly?
I think not.
I wonder, though, how helpful it is to say, as you have, "When I first came to this place , it was a great place to be . But now and I did see your hate story before . And I can say that there is hate at this message board now and there never was before .. ( this is my point of view )". I don't say this in an accusative way. It's just that I see no hate here. But I am now sensitised to it and will look for it in case it is present. So, I feel you have, while asking a reasonable question, potentially perpetuated the negatives you want rightly to be gone.
This place is what we make it to be. It isn't real. It's a talking shop. It is not real life. To keep it healthy and safe it is the duty of each and every one of us, personally, to carry the burden of safety. There's no-one to delegate to. No manager to complain to. Each of us has 100% responsibility for it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I understand your question a little bit. I am not sure about asking others to come back. I for one would welcome anyone back that wanted to return.
As to the "hate" you speak of. That has bothered me alot lately. Not for me personally but for the friends that have felt pained by it. That is something I will always speak out for.
Behaviour needs limits. I would hope that the "core values" of each person here would keep them from lashing out at people. To bad in our recent past that hasn't happened lately. But that is the past. We now have the future to think of. I think we are getting that peace back, and I am hopeful for the future.
Their are so many wonderful souls represented here that give me hope for mankind (and womankind .. hehe) in general. These are the assets here. The people. And they are something to treasure. So my hope is that in the future no one will be 'driven away'.
Love and happiness to you all,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Well I am sorry but I disagree with you on that ..there is hate at this Place of Safety .. I thank you for answering my question to a point but it wasn't answer in full .. I am not trying to make trouble ..I am just trying to find an answer to my question .. maybe one of the other members can answer it for me ..
Hoping to hear from others ..
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Thanks for answer this ..
I was sure I wasn't the only one here that saw the hate here lately ..
Once the " Words " are said they are hard to take back but with some work and kinder words they can be over look ..
But " Words " can and do hurt ..
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A reply is in order to this... I just don't know what to say though. I guess there is hate, but I think it stems from others pain. Not that they consiencly wnat to hate the people but that it feels right to becuase they don't agree... Or maybe I'm just way off and missed your point. If so sorry.
Andy
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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thanks ..and no you are not way off ..
your post does help some and I thank you for answering my post ..
but just because someone have hurt you or me ..that is not a good reason to hurt others .. sure the plain is there but I think by hurting others ..that just add to the plain that you already got ..
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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Rick, I understand your question. However, I think that it contains one word which is problematic, and that word is 'hate'. Of late, unfortunately, we have seen on this Message Board examples of people giving full rein to their anger, frustration, indignation and so forth - and they did this using the most terrible venom, really hurtful words. But I do not believe that these episodes were born of hate. Hating someone or something means despising it. I do not believe that what we have seen here was born of hate: no one found any one else despicable. As Timmy has said, this grossly unacceptable and hurtful behaviour was born in the anguish of suffering souls. I do not mean to imply that this makes the behaviour acceptable: I do not subscribe to the philosophy "comprendre c'est tout pardonner" [understanding brings automatic forgiveness]. I just mean to point out that this really frightful period (now hopefully past) was not born out of hate but suffering.
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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i dont think its hate Rick,but its unbridled anger.that has been happily corrected.Hate is an emotion that doesnt belong here and sometimes is a bit confusing.Anger can be held in check ,redirected and controlled..rob
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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I thank you Steven for answering my post ... and maybe Hate was the wrong word to use ..but just maybe .. because I do see hate here with some people here ..I see it in their words and the way they say them .. I know because I was at the end of some of them .. but that is in the past ..
But to my real question ...no one have answer it ..
I have a question that been bothering me for some time that about this place . Well is it that some of you here bend over backwards to keep people that hurt other here ? But when others are hurt by something said here , and leaves so they don't get hurt again . Nothing is done to get them back or to keep them here . So if this is really A Place of Safety for everyone , why isn't it done for everyone that come here or for those that were here for a long time ?
and I hope someone can answer it .. I see it here and I am sure others have too .. I would just like to know why ?
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I am sorry but when words are use to hurt people , it is hate ..not anger .
Anger is when you are mad at someone or something but if you use it and words to hurt someone then it is hate ..
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You have much to share my friend.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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hurtful anger is wrong.We all have strong opinions and I make a careful distinction between blind opinion and value...Strong opinions can blind a person to do hurtful acts...But then again that anger can be changed...Its time to STOP the hurt..We can do just that by starting a new day...rob
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Steve
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Really getting into it |
Location: London, England
Registered: November 2006
Messages: 465
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Rick,
Some people are hurt by things that are said here and cry out in their pain. Others just leave. Some leave with a slamming of the door as it were and some just slip off quietly.
When someone tells us that they are hurting we can do something about it. If we do not then we are very wrong indeed and collectively must ask forgiveness. If someone keeps silent about their hurt there is not much that anyone can do.
If you, Rick, have been hurt by my silence on this Message Board at any time please forgive me: rest assured that it was not intentional.
Steve (and NEVER Steven, Stephen etc  ) )
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Sorry about putting a " N " in your name ..
I didn't mean to do something wrong by it ..but my dad's name is Steven and I am just use to spelling it that way ..
only again sorry ..
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trevor
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Really getting into it |
Registered: November 2002
Messages: 732
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Hey, Rick - I think I know what you are saying and why you feel that way. I think you have a valid question. But, I don't completely agree with the degree of some of your interpretations. Here's my best honest answer in my opinion, and I'm sure I fit into a few of my own examples.
Personally, I've seen strong opinions and jabs that I think were intended to be funny, but could be taken for hate. When hurtful things are said here, I think it's rare that the intention has been to hurt another, more often to justify one's self or possibly retaliate for pain, if that makes sense. Hate is a pretty strong word, and it's hard to know the purpose behind the words sometimes.
I haven't really seen a lot of bending over to keep people here. I have seen second chances, banning, and probation for those who seem to have difficulty expressing themselves sometimes, but it is they themselves, I think, who keep coming back, not someone else asking them to or trying to get them to stay. Of course, I may have missed something and don't read every post!
I don't think much of anyone is begging anyone to stay or come back, really. We can individually tell them they are/were appreciated and then welcome them back when/if they return.
I think some leave because they over-react or are unable to deal with the bumps in the road for whatever reason. I left when I was frustrated and lacked the tact necessary to diffuse the situation without being offensive - a bump in my personal road.
In a few rare cases it's an "irreconcilable" philosophy difference with our host. But, you can't please all the people all of the time and I'm sure this forum just isn't the right place for some people. Sometimes this is either an unwillingness to forgive or an expectation of some form of perfection. We all have our peeves and soft spots.
If a person doesn't express himself well with written words, especially if he doesn't have some obvious particular appeal to others, this probably isn't a wonderful place to post, to be honest. Also, if others know what your past pains have been, it's easier for them to either "cut you some slack" or avoid certain discussion for you benefit. Think of Ashley, for example. Also, of course, the more "close friends" you have in any group, the more you will be missed. There are a few little groups of us who communicate with each other offline more than other, but no true cliques that I'm aware of. You, I, Ashley and a couple others could be considered such a group, I suppose. No, most of this isn't completely fair, but it's the best we can do sometimes to accomodate those who we can understand or relate to.
Sometimes it's a tough line to walk between keeping the peace and avoiding hurt feelings versus open discussion of our bad feelings and frustrations. But, I this is usually a good place to ask the tough questions, too.
Well, that's my possibly-overly-frank opinion, anyway.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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So, keep saying it.
It always seems an amazingly good idea, when a major problem is solved to dig and dig and dig until you can manage, finally either to unearth something, or to create it afresh.
So, there must be hate here. Because you say it.
And because you have created a thread where other peole answer about it you make them think it too.
If you detect displeasure in my words it is because I am displeased.
But, as you say, there is hate here. So it must be true.
Have you ever said to a child "Be careful. You'll fall of the wall"? A self fulfilling prophecy. They fall.
Say to that child "When you walk along the wall, walk free as a bird, look ahead of you and feel tall!" They walk in reasonable safety. They may yet fall. More likely they will succeed.
So, Rick. There is hate here.
What a great idea. Next we'll have finger pointing about who hates whom.
It strikes me that you may now say "I posted something you didn't like, and you told me all this, so that proves there is hate here."
No. It proves I have had enough.
Someone said to me last night "I should not post here. I cause trouble." he'd read your post. He was upset over it. Me too. He has never caused trouble in his life.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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For the past several hours we ALL have seen and witnessed you scraping at this wound and are rather tired.Its bedtime and tomorrow is a new and bright day....Please stop digging and digging.IT AINT HELPING...be part of the solution and not part of the problem.......rob
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thanks Trevor ..
I didn't mean to hurt anyone by asking this question ..
I was just trying to find an answer but I guess I should kept it to myself .
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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i see the point rick is trying to make and some of you are trying to dance around it with more confusing words that frankly i find hard to see the value of. rick just wants an answer to a question he sees as valid and doesn't have any ulterior motive at all.
some people frame a question the best way they know how and it would appear that a few of you only can see things your own way. please take the time to answer his question without malice and intent. he isn't trying to start up trouble or further a personal vendetta, it is just his way of asking. do we always attack someone when they don't frame a question the way you think they should?
i had heard ashley say it before that the tone of this place had changed and that he felt less than welcome here. it would appear that others feel the coldness of a reply sometimes as well. hate is like love, relative.
the idea of change can be instituted by all but it appears that not everyone here is ready. if it were so that the change had begun, this thread would have ended with a knowing reply of a tender nature. forgive me for being so blatant but it is what i see.
i believe that this place will get better and maybe a word of warmth could replace the other words that sometimes creep in. ashley would want it that way and i also do. ashley has always loved being here. thank you for the time.
david
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I have been posting at this message board since the very first day. In fact I was second to post behind a friend, her name was Josie.
The emotions seen at the board today are exactly the same now as then.
The only change has been the participants.
There is no malice in anyone here. There is although varing degrees of pain, confusion, expectation, friendship, beliefs, education, age, orientation, social skills, verbosity.... and I could go on adinfinitim with the list describing the various people that visit here.
Tim is a gracious host and a wonderful friend. He will bend over backwards when he sees a soul in pain or distress. This has been his way ever since I first met him and he has always been the steadfast friend throughout our friendship. It is his way and I am happy and proud to call him my friend.
He is gracious enough to always keep his door open. The only thing he can ot control is the traffic. People are free to come and go at will. They are also free to peer in through the windows until they either decide this is the wrong house or they decide they want to come in.
With all the conversations that have wound their way through the message board there is only one thing that Tim as well as all the participants both active and lurking can not meter. That is the way a post is interpreted by a reader. There are so many various reasons that people come and stay here that it is impossible to understand all the nuances and differences of language and culture so as to continually post in a totally benign form. That and the fact that some people are more sensitive than others make it very hard to keep all posts and replies neutral.
Take me for example.... What I mean is that having had "words" being a huge part of my professional carreer I find myself being called abrupt because of the brevity of the vast majority of my posts and replies. I have been also critical of people that use a plethora of words in an effoer to dance around what they are really trying to say. As an example, I am misinterpreted for my brevity and some others are misunderstood for saying what thay have to say in the only way they can say it.
My point is that reading is as much a perceptual experience as the writing of a post. The meaning as it is read sometimes is not the meaning as it was written.
I hope this was of some help....
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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david dawson wrote:
> the idea of change can be instituted by all but it appears that not everyone here is ready. if it were so that the change had begun, this thread would have ended with a knowing reply of a tender nature.
I thought that is what had happened? I agree it seems that all are not quite ready to embrace the total collective responsibility of making this simple messageboard a gentle place again. But look how far we've come.
The voices of discontent have now taken on a new perspective, the snipes have lessened. We have an offer of atonement which will be taken by default. So all of these add to what can happen positively.
"If it's to be, it's up to me!"
OK, I am doing my bit. So it's up to all others too.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Thanks David for trying to help but I think it time to drop my question .
I don't think it will get answer , so I and asking everyone here to forget it . everyone is saying everything but not answering my main question ..
I guess I do not belong here ..
I am sorry for that because I thought this was a Safe Place to be and to answer question without doing it in a hateful way ..but I was wrong ..
to the owner of this board ...
please remove me from your mailing list and my memebership from your board ..
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Then you must have phrased it in a way that is impenetrable. So rephrase it.
If you want to spur me into running after you to say "please come back," then no, for you know it will not happen. You are your own master. You may come and go as you please. Others may or may not run after you as they please to entreat you to stay.
Public leavetaking does make the one leavetaking feel it is final. It feels embarrassing to return. Only it isn't. Go or return there is a place for you here.
The site mailing list is down to you. You maintain your record there, not me. Do with it as you choose, for I will not interfere with your decisions in any way.
Don't treat my post to you, which I know you will read, as anything other than it is. It is an acknowledgement of your free will.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The reason to stay is so you can get the answer to your question.
All right, perhaps at this juncture we may have not given you what you need by way of an answer.
But sometimes there is no direct answer. There are only results.
Just take the contention between Rob and Myself.... We have both resigned ourselves to the fact that we are going to be friends irregardless of all that has happened previously.
That is a step forward. Not an answer per se, but it is a result. A result of two people that were at odds being able to put all the petty things aside and say, publicly that we are going to be friends.
It is just that simple.
I don't want you to leave either... So I am offering my hand to you in friendship... Your input is important to me.
It is just that simple.
Please stay so we might get to know each other.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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rick, stay, don't leave. now is the time to show others you have what it takes to let the past go and belong to a place of safety.
your input will help as you have seen others add their warmth here. don't despair and leave. stay in spite of how you perceive the answers to your question. appears to be many who would embrace you if given a chance.
i see tim this is still a good spot. maybe, just like life, it isn't perfect? still though, it's here and wanting to help.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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We can't even approach it. Nowhere like this can come close. We can show love and warmth, we can show a spirit of community, we can do so many things. We can also fight, even though that is wholly unhelpful.
The point I am trying to make to Rick is that he has a place here, and it is up to him to take it. The only time someone gets pushed away is when their transgressions are enormous and unforgiveable. But I have never yet pulled anyone in, nor pulled them back to stay.
You see, if I did then it would be staying for the wrong reasons, "to please timmy". They need to join and stay for their reasons, not mine.
This place is "ok", no more and no less. And that was how it was designed to be.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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With all due respect,Ricks question recieved a lot of good answers and were presented to eachs abilities...This is cyberland wher in some cases thousands of miles seperate one from another.For me,and I admit I have issues,I forgot one of the basic tenents and that is one cannot take back printed words.Another thing I forgot,and I am learning,is the value of friendship....What I have FOUND HERE is a bunch of people that value friendship as priceless and are willing to walk the mile to keep those friendships even if one or several arnt being too nice...Saying that somebody dont like this or they dislike that dont fix the problem...What fixes the problem is for all to put their heads togeather, SAY STOP,then go about the business of fixing the problem...Timmys right when he states that this is an international multi-cultural message board and that is just too priceless to cast aside...Ash has touched my heart in his message board,the piece about the mousetrap made this old fart cry like a baby...How true were the words in that little story.Please bring here things like that and not criticising words...Bring back the power and love that wonderful boy is to this place of friends and safty...I have read and reread all the wonderful words on Ashs site....Those words lift and heal--they bring a joy.Deliver those words to this site Sir and we will be in your debt.....rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Very nice Rob....
I am proud of you....
Huggs tight....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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I really really really like the thingy at the bottom of your posts.FRIENDS says it all and that friendship is priceless.....rob
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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No Message Body
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I am not sure I am qualified to answer your question. But if I had a better understanding of the nature of your question I sure would give it a try. Please don't take my lack of a proper reply to mean I am rejecting you. I would not do that.
Please accept my hand in friendship.
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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enough!!!!!!!!!!Now that we all have fixed the problem,lets have some fun in iomfatsland and just be kids again........rob
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But I would like to point out that healing takes time. Some have been hurt. So we must make steps everyday to make amends for things we didn't do quite right, myself included.
Lets work at it everyday.
To borrow from a friend,
Peace and Trees,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all your doing is still picking at the scab and its really not part of the solution......ENPUGH!!!!!!!!!!!......rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Kevin is only trying to help.
He is only saying that it all will take some time....
These little bumps in the road are to be expected.... Now please do take a moment to calm down and think about what you are saying before you hit the post button....
OK....
I know it's hard.... but each time it will become easier....
Now I want you to know that everyone here wants to see you succede....
Together we can do it.... I know we can....
Huggs tight....
Marc
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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I am calm Marc,I have never been calmer before..It is a good feeling to be doing the right thing and I was not picking on kev...Wars or hurts can and do stop in instants...People just say stop the war.everybody puts down the guns and walks off the battlefield...It is that simple.....rob
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Seems to me soneone in an email mentioned a firebreak. So, firebreak time. If this topoic is still relevant in 7 days then let's re-open it. Until them I am locking the thread.
I will unlock it in a week IF we need it again.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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