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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Is it right to try to protect the feelings of someone that is doing something wrong by not telling him so?
Does doing this make you less or more of a friend?
What if this wrong thing has the potential to harm others? What then??
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I think this is an ethical paradox that is never right or wrong, and is always right or wrong. Each time something like this happends we need to search within ourselves for the right thing to do. Maybe we will make a mistake, but if we do our best to find what is right within our hearts that is as close as it gets to the right thing.
We sometimes feel we owe it to a friend to say something that might hurt. But we feel an obligation as a friend. When we know we will hurt the friend, we can choose to spare the hurt by being silent.
When others are hurt, and we know that what we say will hurt, now we are talking the lesser of two evils. Each situation is as unique as the people involved. So with each situation like this that happens, the correct answer might be different from one time to another.
Sorry but I guess I didn't really answer your question.
But that is the best I could do.
Love to ya,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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Broaching the subject of self destructive behavour or abusive acts towards others is part of a mature and loving friendship,there are risks involved..Friends are worth fighting for..Perhaps in the short term,the resultant anger may be short..In reality,the long term effects are a stronger friendship....Friendship like love should be unconditional...At the very least,mention in some small unthreatening way that conduct isnt cool.....rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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What about those innocent people caught up in the wake of this wrong deed.
Is it right to watch them be hurt?
Is it correct to ride the fence then?
Sooner or later someone must take a stand.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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perhaps its time to mention the specific nature of the deed without mentioning names........rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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As such there is no need to point out specific situations.
It is a matter of ethical response to a set of circumstances.
In as much as this is theoritical, general and non personal responces are what is required by way of an answer.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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One good test of character is the person who risks censure from his fellows when he reaches out and helps another..That takes courage....rob
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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it says nothing about helping....
It refers to a potentially harmful or hurtful situation.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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what I am trying to tell you is that when you are forced to choose between hurting one party over another their is no right answer. I cannot take a stand unless I was in the spot your talking about. It seems you are referring to one particular instance, at least a personal one to yourself. Am I right?
If so, only you can make that call as the friend.
My opinion would really be irrelevant since I am not the one to choose.
Hope that is a little more clear.
Also, I think everyone that ever faces that makes a choice to act or not. So we all decide one way or another. Like it or not.
Hope all goes well,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Sometimes you tell the person and they're too stubborn to listen to the person anyway. Yes, the person should be told, but if that person chooses not to listen, even after being told numerous times how much they've hurt someone...then that person should just be left alone. Maybe then they'll realise how other people will not put up with the behaviour and will decide of their own accord to change it.
You cannot change how people behave, but you CAN change how you respond to it.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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So you are saying you would divorce yourself from your relationship with the person even if the he/she is a good friend?
Would you take the situation to the next level of confrontation (i.e. parents, teacher, the law)if it were continuing to place people in jeopardy?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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are you angry at rob,,Marc??????.......rob(guilty conscience)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Is there not a difference between telling someone thay are hurting an innocent person and risking hurting their feelings as opposed to choosing sides in a confrontation?
There has to a moral standard here.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
> Is there not a difference between telling someone thay are hurting an innocent person and risking hurting their feelings as opposed to choosing sides in a confrontation?
OK, now you have made a judgement that they were hurting an "innocent person", a fact not in your original question. All the facts of a situation would need to be know to make a conclusion. You see my point? That is just one of many unknown facts about the situation your talking about.
I am only saying that it is impossible to generalize every situation to fit the one your talking about.
I am not trying to be dificult with you, I just beleive a general answer would not be correct all of the time.
Hugs to you,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
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Marc wrote:
> Is it right to try to protect the feelings of someone that is doing something wrong by not telling him so?
No. It is not. What is right is to attempt to tell him in a decent manner, with kindness and with genuine fellow feeling.
> Does doing this make you less or more of a friend?
It may lose the friendship altogether by the other perosn;s choice. But I think it means that you value the friendship enough to make the attempt
> What if this wrong thing has the potential to harm others? What then??
The answers I've given do not change in those circumstances.
In fact the only thing that may change is the friendship. And that depends on the way you put the problem to your firned and then on the way they react.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
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The qualification is that I do not know, except by your words, that the friend is hurting or harming someone else. That is a judgement call (and may be very clear cut, depending on the circumstances). Hmm. I must be tired. I know what I want to say, but the words don't work.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
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Let's develop it.
I want to make a very "black and white" assumption. I want to go with the assumption that it is always necessary to tell the friend tha the is hurting someone or doing a "wrong thing".
To be clear, let us adopt the position that we must tell him. And bear with me. Adopt this position for the dicsussion, even if you do not agree with it.
Now: how does what we say to our friend alter depending upon circumstances?
Some circumstances might be:- close friend
- simple acquanitance,
- a person whose name we know, butlittle else
- doing great and provavble harm
- only doing harm in our own opinion
- We have found out in confidence what he is doing and shoudl not know
There are loads more situations. The floor is open
[Updated on: Tue, 30 September 2003 22:38]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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How about a moral answer....
Leave specifics out of the equasion....
Leave generalities out as well....
Just a moral conclusion to a general question....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Again Timmy, even if we make thes assumptions. You listed several circumstances that may each have a different outcome. I would like to hear a more precise account of an instance and make a judgement based on that information.
Even with these assumptions, each circumstance has many unknowns left. Like how is the close friend likely to react? Will the acuaintance be likely to ignore advice from someone not close to him (or her)? A person we don't know: we are all unqualified to make a judgement like that.
And more imortant than any of that: What is the nature of the "hurt" we are talking about. Getting your feelings hurt? Rape? Or tormenting by a third party?
I hope you see my point. Life is a grey area when we try to make one rule for every case.
Just my opinion,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Marc, the morality of rape for instance is different than the morality of teasing. To many unanswered questios for me. I will leave this topic alone now as I seem to be the lone man out with this opinion.
Good luck.
And much love to you,
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The rules are mere variant interpretations of the moral implications of any given sceinerio.
There are many judgements that can be rendered in any situation, but the morals and mores are the standards by which such judgements can be made.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No Message Body
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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a lot of energy has been expended on this topic and the diverse opinions are enlightening to say the least...Hate,anger,mistrust all hurt like hell and I am no different..I feel the pain,the divisiveness and the mistrust and I can assure one and all that it hurts..I have caused a great hurt and for that I will (not try for there is no try,only do)be a better person for this experience...sorry for the sermon....rob
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Of not giving an answer to the moral question. Here you go.
It is wrong to hurt someone.
It is wrong to let someone be hurt.
Without degrees and circumstances you want to know wich is more wrong.
Sorry, that I cannot do.
I will shut up now ... hehe
(I am sure a few of your are relieved at that)
Kevin
"Be excellent to each other, and, party on dudes"!
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Marc, I don't think we have actually talked about this kind of subject yet, but if you look at some of the things i have written on the MB, then you probably know how I feel about this... but I wish to tell you openly how I feel about it...
If you see someone doing wrong, but are afraid of telling them in fear of hurting them, then as a friend, you are doing them wrong as well...
If you tell them in love, then I feel you are doing them a service, because the fact that you are taking that time to tell them, shows you care and are helping them become a better person.
If you don't tell them because you are afraid of hurting them, then you have no part in giving them a chance at becoming a better person by helping them out.
If they could potentially be hurt or embarassed by what they do, and you do nothing about helping them avoid that, then are you truly a friend to that person????
Marc, I hope this makes sense. I know it is a little lengthy, but I feel that as people the only way we can meke this world better is to love, care, and be willing to help each other out... no matter what that means doing... which usually means simply coming out of our comfort zone for a little while.
I hope my words here help a little...
If not, just blow them off... but it is jsut my take on all of this...
Hugs and Peace, Marc...
Bam
Celebrate your life... embrace your love... Become intimate with your place in forever !!!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
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I see these as very similar.
In one case you violate my body. In the other you violate my mind.
There is a story I wrote precisely about that. "The Misfit" expresses the results of teasing very clearly.
Those who were teased badly might have preferred to have been raped (if unknowing about the feelings of rape). Those who were raped might prefer to have been teased (again if unknowing.....). Only a sufferer of both may give an apparently correct answer here. And yet even that answer will be tinged with which act was, for them, worse.
I think the orginal question may be interpreted as simply that. A question with a theoretical answer.
Shades of grey follow the answer, not precede it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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well I sure as heck dont wanna violate your body Timmy,that wouldnt be nice and since the Britts use rubbers for erasers,The mind--well i"ll have to think on that......rob
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robert bryce
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Really getting into it |
Registered: January 1970
Messages: 414
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sounds like a pretty murky topic to me guys,but I prefer to play in the mud as I like dirt and mud pies...splatt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!rob
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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If the discrepancy is between myself and the other person alone, yes I would. You can only explain to someone so often before you realize they just don't want to hear what you have to say, or change their behaviour. Sometimes, people try to attain a state of perfectionism that just isn't possible in this world, it really only leads to unhappiness.
To have good friends you have to be one yourself, don't you think? And as an FYI -- I have a few good friends that I trust implicitly, as they do me. I've had the enlightening experience of them telling me straight out that something I was doing they didn't like. We then talked about it. No shouting matches only a friendly discussion.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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True friends are a as you said..... Those that know when to listen as well as know when to speak up.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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No.
It is not right to shield someone else from his or her - though I believe it's "his" - errors. If a math teacher discovers the answer "five" under the problem "two plus two" on an assignment would it not be the duty of that teacher to correct it?
It's called constructive criticism in schoolwork but in life it's viewed as an intrusion. Perhaps this view is based on the assumption that in life there are no right or wrong answers but I would argue that often times there is one choice that is clearly superior to the other. The only reason why we may not make the distinction is because we never really know absolutely everything about a given situation.
And, naturally, making someone aware of his or her errors would make you more of a friend, even - and sometimes especially - if the other does not want to hear it.
One last thing and then I'm done.
The only distinction you need to make is whether this is an issue of right and wrong or an issue of personal preference. If a teacher notices that a student has written in blue ink and that despleases him or her, he or she ought not to take points off because it is, nevertheless, perfectly legible. In short: do not confuse an error with preference.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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And friends also listen to what their friends say and not respond by calling the person talking to them names, by engaging in a shouting match or becoming defensive. They also don't deliberately hurt the person with the names they choose to call them or the things they choose to say.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Are you trying to say something?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Nope.. not a bit..... 
Re: Rape vs Teasing 
