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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Storm Survivors
icon6.gif Storm Survivors  [message #25867] Tue, 30 August 2005 21:48 Go to next message
TygerBoiSammy is currently offline  TygerBoiSammy

Toe is in the water

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 57



Well, Lived thru Ivan, ran all the way thru Dennis, now we surivived a close pass with Katrina. I am really beginnin to hate Florida.
No real damage to Robby's house, so we're okay. We have power back after only a day without. No trees fell here, that i can see.


The real danger is in New Orleans right now. The pics on tv from there are just devastating. Houses and businesses and cars, where all u can see are roofs. The coast guard has been cutting thru roofs to let ppl trapped in houses out. Most of the city is under water. And for those of u that don't know, New Orleans is so deep under sea level that it doesn't normally drain. Both the systems of levee pumps were totally overpowered by this storm and when they lost power, they lost even that ability. I fear that it will b a long time before the crescent city is open for tourists again. I only hope that my brother tygers in the Audobahn Zoo survived this storm.

I know ppl pray for me, but i ask that u send ur prayers to all the victims of hurricane Katrina. Storms like that r called city killers for a reason. I only hope that such dangers urge ppl to plan and build cities more in tune with nature and natural disasters instead of putting ourselves in harms way without a care. Just somethin to think and pray and meditate on.
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25868 is a reply to message #25867] Tue, 30 August 2005 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344



I just do not get it.....

People constantly build homes in flood zones.... Than whine when they get flooded....

People build homes on unstable ground and whine when their house slides down and crashes at the bottom of the hill....

People build homes on the sides of a volcano and whine when the mountain goes boom and mashes their house with rocks and lava....

Wouldn't it just be easier if people built according to the local situations that make their choice of homestead a bit more realistic?
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25873 is a reply to message #25868] Wed, 31 August 2005 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



People build next to other people because the second fool thinks the first fool is wise and knows it to be safe.

You are right, of course. But somehow it feels right to be upset about a hurricane and sorry for the people who chose to live where one is likely to happen whereas we do not feel sorry for the man who "walked to close to the cliff edge" and fell off.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25874 is a reply to message #25873] Wed, 31 August 2005 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tom is currently offline  tom

Toe is in the water
Location: Derby, UK
Registered: March 2002
Messages: 47



Sometimes people assume that just because there's a city there, its automatically a safe place to live. If this can happen to New Orleans, imagine what could happen to Mexico City in similar circumstances.



Nothin' to see here, officer.
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25875 is a reply to message #25873] Wed, 31 August 2005 15:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shawn is currently offline  Shawn

Toe is in the water

Registered: July 2004
Messages: 69



You know...I have tried to not come here...I find that you and Marc and one or two others post things that are hurtful..and you don't care who it hurts, so I know I should just stay away, but there are other people here, like Sammy and Jamie, that I care about, so I would come and read occasionally.

But, for the two of you, sounding so superior, making these comments about the devastation in New Orleans, I'll tell you. It says something about you, something that maybe you don't realize you are saying. But, it has done something good for me. It has finally made it easy for me to never come here again.

I made it through the storm, and I have been working at the shelters. I have witnessed the pain and suffering first hand. It is unimaginable. I sincerely hope and pray that none of the survivors and refugees is gay or know of this board. I would hate to have them read what you have posted.

I am sure you will tear me up after I am gone over this.....I don't care...maybe you won't even post this..or remove it...I don't care...this is not a place of safety anymore, this is a hurtful place. How can you be so unfeeling. It is simply beyond me to understand how you think. I don't even want to try anymore. I am perhaps too soft hearted, but you are perhaps too cold hearted.

some of you have been very kind to me, thank you,

Good bye

Shawn
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25876 is a reply to message #25875] Wed, 31 August 2005 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



Oh dear. You really do try so hard to take offence nowadays.

Please try to get this into perspective. The storm is a fact. We are sorry about the fact. It sucks. People are grieving, suffering, dying. Peole have lost everything and other have retained everything. And in the midst of this other people are looting.

The point is that what appeared to be a safe and wholesome place to live was not.

People thought it was safe because other people were there, and because man had built earthworks and other works to attempt to tame nature. For whatever reason the earth and other works failed when beaten by the pressure of so much force. Perhaps they were poorly designed, perhaps the violence of the storm was inconceivable greater than the designers ever envisaged, I doubt we will know.

But people still build and rebuild houses over fault lines, in tornado districts, on flood plains. If you can keep the current toll of human misery out of the equastion for a moment, surely you can see that this is not a rational behaviour.

Look at what Tom says above your post. Just because someone else is there it truly does not mean that it is either safe or sensible to be there too.

Saying this makes me no less concerned for the welfare of those who thought they were living in a safe area. They trusted city planners, architects, flood prevention engineers, and the very fact that there was a great city. They were wrong to trust, even though the places had been relatvely safe for generations.

Do, please, try to read the words I write, not the words you think I write.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25877 is a reply to message #25876] Wed, 31 August 2005 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



I don't want to get involved in an argument here -- I can imagine that it must be horrible in New Orleans at the moment, and I extend my condolences to everyone who has been affected.

However, I have a question.

All the news reports at the moment are dwelling on the tragedy in New Orleans.

Is it "more tragic" that a couple of hundred people died in a freak storm in America, or that up to 1000 people died in a stampede in Iraq?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4199618.stm

People who live in Iraq are living in a genuinely unsafe place, and they can do nothing about it. Most are too poor to move somewhere safer, and the risks to them are not simply acts of God, but horrific acts of Man.

Whereas Americans can (largely) evacuate, or move, Iraqis have little or no choice.

Are Westerners more valuble than Iraqis?
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25878 is a reply to message #25877] Wed, 31 August 2005 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



you are partially correct about evacuation. Black residents seem not to have evacuated. They tend, as a generalisation, to lack the finance to evacuate

I think one might simply say that each disaster is as horrid as each other.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25879 is a reply to message #25876] Wed, 31 August 2005 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344



Same here ........

I don't appreciate words being placed in my mouth.....

I mentioned nothing about the victoms..... I was refering to the social delema of following the leader into the jaws of the gorgon....

If all you can see is the here and now of the abysmal devestation there then perhaps you should reconsider helping for being helped...
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25881 is a reply to message #25867] Wed, 31 August 2005 20:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

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The truth of the matter is no one on this dirt ball called earth is 100% safe. Someday probable not too far in the future all us will be faced with a world pandemic, I'm not guessing here, we know it's gonna happen and all the planning and engeneering of the greatest minds is not going to stop the maybe hundreds of millions of deaths it will cause.
Another thing is that I don't think it has anything to do with wisdom or lack there of that brings human suffering into stark contrast, people are going to live where ever they can just on the bases of world population and the resources any particular area provides.
How many of you are familar with the typhon that hit Bangladesh a few decades ago? Because of the poverty there almost no one remembers or speaks of it any more but there are few natural disasters that even come close to the devestaton that befell the humans that lived there.
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25882 is a reply to message #25881] Wed, 31 August 2005 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tom is currently offline  tom

Toe is in the water
Location: Derby, UK
Registered: March 2002
Messages: 47



Did anyone see that Horizon on supervolcanoes a couple of years ago? Two under the USA, and another under the Indian Ocean. If one of them blew, we'd pretty much all be doomed, and its about half a million years overdue too



Nothin' to see here, officer.
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25883 is a reply to message #25882] Wed, 31 August 2005 20:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Not to mention the chance of a tsunami on the southern coast of Britain...

http://www.rense.com/general13/tidal.htm
http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a010829.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3963563.stm

etc.

And, given the chances of a chemical, nuclear or biological attack on London and the UK...

Not to mention a few supervolcanoes, a comet from outer space, depletion of the ozone layer, global warming, AIDS, CJD, SARS...

Terrorists, gays, paedophiles, Muslims, fundamentalist Christians, communists, witches, atheists...

... In fact, it's a wonder we're alive at all. We might as well give up and die now...

Oh dear. I wasn't supposed to be agreeing with you! I was supposed to be doing what people round here do best, and doing my best to take offence.

P.S. Bonk
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25884 is a reply to message #25883] Wed, 31 August 2005 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tom is currently offline  tom

Toe is in the water
Location: Derby, UK
Registered: March 2002
Messages: 47



Don't forget the BNP. Nick Griffin has a lot to answer for. Wretch.

I know its probably not an appropriate thing to say right now, but destruction is a form of creation. Maybe something good will come of this, maybe not now, but in the future. Disasters have a habit of bringing people together, giving people of all backgrounds a focus around which to rally. It just happened to take down the cultural centre of the South, but it may yet be rebuilt with a stronger spirit than ever before. Time will tell.



Nothin' to see here, officer.
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25885 is a reply to message #25881] Wed, 31 August 2005 21:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



It is certain that, because this disaster has happened to a wealthy nation, it will be remembered. The same certainty is there in your wholly valid statement about the Bangledesh typhoon being unremembered.

Equally there are many other disasters waiting to happen. One is the inevitabel tsunami predicted herehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/mega_tsunami.shtml This is not "if", but "when". And there will not be time to evacuate, not will any amount of disaster avoidance planning help.

We live on a planet which has two inherently unstable elements: The atmosphere and the oceans. Additionally tyhe land is not always stable either. The point, surely, is that we should realise this and plan ahead far enough to seek to minimse the awful impact of a natural disaster.

Our news tonight states finally a realistic estimate of unbeliebably high death tolls from this, both from the immediate effects and from subsequent disease. That is it awful, that doubtless some of us have lost friends and family, does not mean we should sit in humble silence awating an inevitable cataclysm. Rather it means that we should influence planners, and act with the authority of knowledge to prevent the purposeful setting up of such a disaster for the future.

That people are dying and suffering and have such little dignity in the adversity they find themselves in should be the spur. It should not cause a hushed reverence to fall and the issues to be denied.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25886 is a reply to message #25884] Wed, 31 August 2005 21:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344



New Orleans is the cultural center of the south?

I must have missed something when I was there...

All I got to see was tits..... alot of dinks....

And a whole lot of drinks......

I was quite cultured bt 11 every night.......

But i managed to find my way back to my hotel anyway.......
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25888 is a reply to message #25884] Wed, 31 August 2005 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



This is absurd...

That is actually a good point. I thought we were supposed to be arguing!

It is at times of national crisis that a nation really gets together and it becomes apparent where its people's loyalties lie. When there is general peace and prosperity, people become apathetic like Timmy (who isn't proud to be British, if I remember correctly).

We are lucky in the UK that we are rarely subject to extreme weather conditions. We don't have earthquakes and volcanoes. We are lucky, too, that we don't have a crazed chimpanzee as prime minister. But that's not to say that great natural - and man-made - disasters can't happen in the UK as well.
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25889 is a reply to message #25888] Wed, 31 August 2005 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



I take issue with the term "apathetic". I do not take issue with the rationale for not being "proud to be British" though. Excessive pride creates chauvinism. Criticism of those in authority, even if it is incorrect, is required in order to ensure they stay alert.

But we are way off topic now



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
In defence of Shawn  [message #25890 is a reply to message #25867] Thu, 01 September 2005 01:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



I was just passing through on one of my periodical lurks when I read this thread, and whilst I don't think anything is ever achieved by walking away instead of arguing, I have every sympathy with Shawn's viewpoint.

What Marc actually said was this:

"I just do not get it ...

People constantly build homes in flood zones ... then whine when they get flooded ...

People build homes on unstable ground and whine when their house slides down and crashes at the bottom of a hill ...

People build homes on the sides of a volcano and whine when the mountain goes boom and mashes their house with rocks and lava ...

Wouldn't it just be easier if people built according to the the local situations that make their choice of homestead a bit more realistic?"

Now this post strikes me as being not only ill-conceived but as being insensitive in the extreme.

Let's look at the principle first. As others have said, this is a crowded planet and those in potentially dangerous locations have, in general, little choice in deciding where to live. It's a matter of survival - or, to use a more scientific term, social economics. Man has always sought to make a living by confronting the power of nature - those who are part of what remains of the UK fishing industry do it as a matter of routine, and every year some die in the process. Large parts of East Anglia - the bulgy bit of the UK above London - are below sea level, as the result of land reclamation which began in Roman times. The land is fertile and profitable to work. The same applies, and for the same reasons, to an even larger proportion of Holland. Both areas are seriously at risk from rising sea levels, and particularly storm surges; a surge in 1953 cost 307 lives and made a further 400 homeless along the East Anglian Coast. The death toll in the Bangladesh flood disaster - or disasters, since they occur regularly - is high because those who live in the flood plain have nowhere else to go. Those disposessed by the Montserrat volcano lived on the island because it was their home - in many cases for generations past - and for many years the island seemed no more at risk than many other Caribbean islands.

I don't know why New Orleans was built where it was, but I'd lay high odds that the reason was economic, as was the case with San Francisco. And once a trading centre is established, it will act as a magnet to those in economic need, as well as those of entrepreneurial vision. In any event, UK coverage suggests that the full fury of the hurricane was felt in Westport and Biloxi rather than New Orleans; I have no idea of their elevation above or below sea level.

So I'd suggest that the kindest thing that can be said about Marc's post is that it was naive in principle.

It was also insensitive to the point of being offensive. In the current situation the proposition itself was insensitive, but the repeated use of the word 'whine' was, in my view, completely unjustifiable. I have visited this site for five years or so, and was once a regular contributor, so I am familiar with Marc's background as well as his style. He has gone through more than most of us will ever be called upon to face, and I respect him for that, but I do not think that this can justify his rudeness and insensitivity. When forced into an apology, his response is that 'it's just the way I am.' So some of his postings are rude and insensitive because Marc is rude and insensitive? Not much of a defence, really.

The point is, most of the population of New Orleans and the surrounding area is there because people need to be there to make a living. They are the victims of a natural disaster, and thousands may have died. They may be distraught, but I haven't heard much whining.

I accept that questions need to be asked about the design and construction of levees and buildings in the area, and I accept that in the nature of things this disaster will be remembered in the West more vividly than disasters affecting the third world; I think this is wrong, but it does appear to be inevitable. But it is the people of the Mississippi Delta who are suffering now; they need our support. Political posturing has no place here; it can come later when the crisis recedes.

Cossie.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Re: In defence of Shawn  [message #25893 is a reply to message #25890] Thu, 01 September 2005 09:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

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All I can say is that you totaly missed the point of my post.

I would try to explain it but I don't have that much free time.

Well that and I really don't think you would absorb it.

As for rude and insensitive..... well it takes one to know one.

The only difference I see between you and me is that I can cay what I need to say in a few words and you need a dissertation.......

Have a nice day......
Well argued but harsh  [message #25894 is a reply to message #25890] Thu, 01 September 2005 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



I think we need to consider that different people react to horrible circumstances in different ways.

That any disaster happens is truly horrible. It matters not at all whether it was "a disaster waiting to happen" or a thing that was unforeseeable.

It is not unreasonable to question the wisdom of continuing to expose one's self to the former category. The horror of the event as it continues to unfold is great. Often an unappealing response is an expression of that horror.

When people die it is normal and natural to be angry at them for dying, for example. I am angry that my father died before I could tell him the thinsg I needed to tell him. To some people my anger is inappropriate.

Without putting any words into Marc's mouth, consider that me may be expressing anger that so many people died genuinely unnecessarily (because it was not actually "necessary" for them to be there).

The economic arguments are good ones. In general we make a risk/reward decsion about things in life. My question is "Did they know the risk?" Myinterpretation of Marc's post is that he, too, is likely to be asking the same question



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Any point of view but this ....  [message #25901 is a reply to message #25894] Thu, 01 September 2005 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1560



http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Well argued but harsh  [message #25902 is a reply to message #25894] Thu, 01 September 2005 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

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They did know the risk the! "Big Easy" along with so much of what exsist along the gulf coast or the "Third Coast" as some of us who have lived there like to call it, have known the risk for a very long time. For instance Galveston on the texas coast was hit by a major storm in I think 1911, the result was the city was wiped from the face of the earth with almost total loss of life. Now due to the fact it was an excilent deep water port it was not abandoned. So what did they do, they weighed the reward/risk factor and built a "Sea Wall" and raised the coastal land elevation by some 19 ft. As we can now all see this will be inadequat.
What they do is weigh the risk based on the freqency of events. Now, on the third coast they do this based on events on a one hundred year interval in the hopes that such an event would be longer in coming.
They will rebuild lets just hope they do it based on 1000 year events next time.
BTW one of the probs I have always had with these boards is that we either write in sounds bites that can not express total coherent thoughts or in disertations that ppl just scan. wadaya gonna do
Re: Any point of view but this ....  [message #25903 is a reply to message #25901] Thu, 01 September 2005 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



how sweet to find a total nutbar.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25904 is a reply to message #25867] Thu, 01 September 2005 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TygerBoiSammy is currently offline  TygerBoiSammy

Toe is in the water

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 57



I've looked over alla the things said here, not in great depth, but i can get a sense of things quickly. Two things very quickly come to my mind.

First, there is a certain sense to the fact that greater city planning should have been done. That the people who've been afraid of exactly this happening in New Orleans should have raised their voices long ago, should have made the hard, painful and adult decision to move the population out of that place and not allow the area of New Orleans to become a residential area. We all knew that the city was a disaster waitin on a date, well that date has happened along with all of the pain, death, destruction, disease, dissentary, distress and now pillaging that goes along with over a million ppl havin gone thru the worst weather that this planet can thro at a place short term. So in that reguard, Marc and the others that point out the practical stuff, they're spot on right.

Second, the truth of it is, it's done. We can armchair it all we want, but that battle has already been lost. Now we have to help those that were as much to blame as victims themselves. A choice to stay when u have no place to go is not a choice at all. And least we forget, people are still dying. Old folks, young ppl, babes in arms, teens, adults, pregnant women, the whole spectrum of humanity. They are starving. They are thirsting. They are just ppl like all of us......

And we calmly sit by and take pot shots at each other, sniping over words....

Timmy, can we do something real to help these ppl? Marc... please, what can we do? I need to know. I want to help. That's what we're here for, right, to help? What can we do for the problem right now?

Please.... someone tell me.....
Re: Well argued but harsh  [message #25905 is a reply to message #25902] Thu, 01 September 2005 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



another voice wrote:
> BTW one of the probs I have always had with these boards is that we either write in sounds bites that can not express total coherent thoughts or in disertations that ppl just scan. wadaya gonna do

The answer is simple. Write coherent thoughts without writing a treatise. And alow your audience to judge the material on its merits.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25906 is a reply to message #25904] Thu, 01 September 2005 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
davethegnome is currently offline  davethegnome

Likes it here
Location: United States
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 204




Well said Sammy. Although I imagine more can be done, here is a message from Jeb Bush on the issue:

The following is a message from the Office of Governor Jeb Bush. Please read.



***********

Please implement immediate steps to conserve energy in your homes and in your offices.

The damage that Hurricane Katrina did to natural gas and gasoline production and distribution facilities will place a strain on our electricity providers and on our gasoline supplies. At the same time, recovery efforts to the impacted states are pulling resources from the whole country.

Many are asking what they can do to help. Not everyone can volunteer time, not everyone can donate money, but everyone of us can conserve fuel and energy to contribute to the recovery efforts of our neighbors.

Conserve energy by using less at home and at work. The state should lead by example. As one of Florida’s largest employers we are implementing energy conservation measures at all state offices.

We all know the major steps to take: Turn off lights when offices are not in use and keep lights off when possible. Turn off computers and monitors when leaving the office. Turn air conditioning thermostats higher.

At home, turn the a/c off when leaving for work. Keep lights off when no one is in the room. Use ceiling fans.

Conserve gasoline and diesel by reducing the number of trips and carpooling. If you can delay road trips for your employees, please consider doing so.

Also, please use any communications opportunities that you have to reinforce this message to other audiences.

We expect to distribute more detailed information and guidelines soon, but wanted to get your help and leadership right away.

Thank you.

Mark Kaplan
Chief of Staff
Office of Governor Jeb Bush
PL-05 The Capitol



It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
Re: Storm Survivors - how may we help?  [message #25907 is a reply to message #25904] Thu, 01 September 2005 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



I know the natural reaction is to rush in and help in a practical manner. I cannot see how that can do more than make life more complicated for all concerned with amateurs arriving and getting stuck in mud, or ill.

I have a strong suspicion that pseudo-charities will spring up asking for donations. Money may help, but frankly the US Government has so huge a set of resources that any local donations are a raindrop, not a drink. Poor metaphor perhaps.

People do need to talk about their experiences. Probably that is the simplest and most fruitful thing to offer. An ear.

On reflection the most important needs are likely to be food and clean water, with water as a serious priority. Perhaps sealed bottles of water and sealed cans of food? Surely someone is organising such a thing? Collecting is one thing. Shipping it there is quite another. Perhaps a freight corporation in your area woudl ship it and you could start to organise a food and water dump?



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Storm Survivors - how may we help?  [message #25909 is a reply to message #25907] Thu, 01 September 2005 19:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

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Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344



I've been thinking, The greif I feel due to the suffering of the folks that live there is weighing heavely on me. From what I know having grown up with the specter of this kind of thing is that everything that can be done is being done, I must add here that no plan is perfect. And being familar with the area "sigh" the logistics are daunting.
At the risk of taking flak I must make a statment and ask questions.
This is a very high profile event, yet all over the world every year millions of people die whether by typhons, earthquakes, famine or even left over pointless conflicts. The list could go on. My questions are these. What does this say of us as a species? Here in the first world with almost every spare camera focused on this event, what will we learn, will it change us, will we have more compasion for those millions that do not get the same media attention?
At the futher risk of being called altrueistc I must say we are no longer americans or europians. How many times does it need to be said we live, in this age, a global community. This is the true golden age of humankind. To some extent we humans could be called the greatest creative and distructive force on the face of the planet. Dare I say almost god like. What will we do with our collective godhood? (Covers head from fallout yikes)
Re: Storm Survivors - how may we help?  [message #25910 is a reply to message #25909] Thu, 01 September 2005 20:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



another voice wrote:
> I've been thinking, The greif I feel due to the suffering of the folks that live there is weighing heavely on me. From what I know having grown up with the specter of this kind of thing is that everything that can be done is being done, I must add here that no plan is perfect. And being familar with the area "sigh" the logistics are daunting.

I am sure that everything that can be thought of currently is being done. I suspect there are insufficient people currently to do it. Mobilisation of sufficient peole takes a finite time.

> This is a very high profile event, yet all over the world every year millions of people die whether by typhons, earthquakes, famine or even left over pointless conflicts. The list could go on. My questions are these. What does this say of us as a species? Here in the first world with almost every spare camera focused on this event, what will we learn, will it change us, will we have more compasion for those millions that do not get the same media attention?

Those cameras are elsewhere, too. They covered all the disasters. The list is huge. If you want non western examples look no further than Bhopal, for example. Then Bosnia, Albania, Chechnya. The list is huge. The media moves on and goes for the next big story.

You riwll find that the US devastation is no longer covered, after a while.

> At the futher risk of being called altrueistc I must say we are no longer americans or europians. How many times does it need to be said we live, in this age, a global community. This is the true golden age of humankind. To some extent we humans could be called the greatest creative and distructive force on the face of the planet. Dare I say almost god like. What will we do with our collective godhood? (Covers head from fallout yikes)

We are individuals and individualistic. We are not one global community. Look what happened when the former Yugoslavia separated. Look at the former USSR. Look at the strident divisions in the EEC. Look at the strife that a very few radicals cause in the name of their religion (any religion - look at "Repent America" for example, which purports to be Christian) and seek to divide the world into "for me or against me". Look at the tribes in Africa who are perpetually at each others' throats, at Mugabe, at other tinpot dictators.

There is a great deal to be solved before one can say that the community is global.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Storm Survivors - how may we help?  [message #25911 is a reply to message #25910] Thu, 01 September 2005 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344



Nah it just takes enough people to say so. We can drop a pebble in the water or people can come together and drop a mountain, though that would be another catastophy Sad
The days of self centered humanisum need to pass. The world has become so small if we don't move back to humaitarianism we might as well let those people you speak of have there way and let the apocalyps roll over us.
We do have the power.
Just to put the record straight ....  [message #25912 is a reply to message #25867] Fri, 02 September 2005 00:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



... I posted yesterday because Shawn was at the disaster scene and I could fully understand why he was pissed off by the comments on the Board.

Whatever he or anyone else may try to say in retrospect, Marc's choice of words (especially 'whine') and his implication that the blame lies with those who choose to live in potential danger zones were both insensitive and offensive. If he wanted to make the wider point that humanity in general should avoid these areas, he could easily have done so. After all, he reassures us that he can say what he needs to say in a few words, so presumably he chose his words accordingly. In any event, for reasons which I don't propose to repeat, economic pressures oblige people to take risks, and will always continue to do so - the rebuilding of Galveston is an excellent illustration.

As regards the dissertation reference, 776 words (93 of them quoting Marc) hardly amounts to a dissertation. It's shorter than any of the five sports reports on the back of today's evening paper.

I fully endorse Timmy's comments above; we are far from becoming a global community - desirable though that would be - and it's naive to pretend otherwise. For myself, I'm a politically active left-winger, and I see little future for humanity if we don't move towards a wider sharing of community. I agree that everyone can do their bit - I subscribe wholeheartedly to the Starfish story! - but we don't really have the power to do much; we need to reduce the political power of the corporate and religious sectors first.

I don't really want to prolong this exchange; academic debate isn't really appropriate against the background of this appalling disaster. I just feel that most of those those who lived through it, or died in it, would have little alternative but to be there, and to suggest that any of them would 'whine' on that account was, to my mind, unforgivable.

Hmm. 341 words. Hope no-one finds that too taxing!



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
In my opinion...  [message #25914 is a reply to message #25912] Fri, 02 September 2005 05:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344



I've read through all of the postings in this particular thread. I can't help but remember that this line of discussion was started by a young man who has more than enough heartache of his own to deal with, yet his heart and prayers go out to others that are hurting and in great need.

Sammy, I admire you. We could all stand to learn what you seem to know instinctively. That where there are hurting people compassion and caring should be foremost. I don't have any good answers as to what can be done for those that are suffering but I have donated to some well established charities knowing that they are better equipped with the answers and the ability than I.

Thank-you Sammy for your compassion.

John
Re: Just to put the record straight ....  [message #25917 is a reply to message #25912] Fri, 02 September 2005 10:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344



Well, unforgivable.... Now aren't you the one.......

Now lets go over a few facts.

Rain will fill a bowl if let out to sit in the weather...

It will fill a cats bowl... It will fill a huge bowl... Such as the one called New Orleans...

It is common knowledge that rain will fill that bowl... the small as well as the large with the correct amoune of rainfall....

Now.......

When one is warned that the correct amount of rainfall is imminent then what is one to do?

Think slowly...... we don't want any rash choices now do we?

There are but two choices......

Choice 1: Go

Choice 2: Do not go.

there are sub categories for each princilap choice as well.....

Sub 1a: Well I lied.... there is no sub category for choice #1.

Choice 2a: Don't go because they are too stupid to heed a warning that the bowl has the possibility of filling.

Choice 2b: Don't go because there is the possibility of taking advantage of the situation and somehow profit illicitly from the ordeal.

Choice 2c: The I can't go because I am too poor to get anywhere.

To these I say bullshit!

If a person is too stupid to remove his hand from a fire I have the same sympathy! If persons think more of the crimes they can commit rather than saving themselves then so be it. If people don;t have the sense to ask for transport when there is time to get it then I guess they have to default to sub category 2a.

Now to those that lost their homes and businesses. Well that is what insurance is for. Either they protected themselves or they dod not. Their fault if their choice was the latter.

Now..... I remember a documentary of a culture somewhere in the south pacific by which they build their homes on stilts to avoid the floods that they know will come. These people have been doing this for a very long time with little in the way of education to justify the choice of construction technique.

Does it take a rocket scientist to know that one does not intellegently place ones primary life investment below the mean water level?

Does it take a politically active left-winger to realize that if that same person agrees to build below the mean water level with the knowledge that a levy (sp) is there to protect the area, that the measure is ONLY SO STRONG and with enough rain has the very real possibility of collapse?

No.... no sympathy here.... just bewilderment at the fact that they will do it all over again.
icon9.gif Re: Just to put the record straight ....  [message #25918 is a reply to message #25917] Fri, 02 September 2005 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TygerBoiSammy is currently offline  TygerBoiSammy

Toe is in the water

Registered: January 1970
Messages: 57



Would everyone please stop attacking Marc. It is not evil to say that a bad thing is bad, or a dumb thing is dumb, and it helps none of us to look to him for blame.

Also, Shawn, please come back to us....

Everyone... i only intended my original post to be just a way to let my friends know i'm okay. That me and Robby got thru the storm in one piece. Now, that simple wave between friends has turned into something... i don't know what words to use to describe it...

Please, helpin the ppl of any tragedy is more important than fighting each other over a topic we all have little pieces of "right" about. The damage in New Orleans is done, now its a matter of damage control. The damage here needs to be over as well... time for a little damage control, and a little love and respect to come back.

We're here for each other.... not to target each other. Lets prove our strength by our unity... not with our internal squabbling...

Please?:-/
Re: Just to put the record straight ....  [message #25923 is a reply to message #25918] Fri, 02 September 2005 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guest is currently offline  Guest

On fire!

Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344



Thank-you Sammy.
Re: Just to put the record straight ....  [message #25924 is a reply to message #25918] Fri, 02 September 2005 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



I am glad you are both ok, too.

The storm simply hit people emotionally if they were not affected directly.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Just to put the record straight ....  [message #25929 is a reply to message #25924] Fri, 02 September 2005 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Who is not directly affected?

I live 1500 miles away and gas prices jumped 60 cents a gallon the day after the storm.

Here again...... You build a line of refineries in the path of yearly hurricanes..... You know this is fact because the area had a history of hurricanes before the invention of a refinery.

Yet........

No anticipation of possible down time at refineries brings along a shortage of gasolene.... Would right minded (read thinking) people here plan for such an event and store some "for a rainy day"...

The world is spinning like a top and idiots have the string......



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Just to put the record straight ....  [message #25930 is a reply to message #25929] Fri, 02 September 2005 13:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13780



I am guessing that the refineries were built there because of a mixture of access to deep water ports and access to land based oil?

And that presumably economies were made in their building and they are thus flooded?

I should mention that we are at £0.96 per litre of petrol over here, and yes it is likely to rise.

By the way, were the levees and other flood defences in good repair? Or, as some rumours are starting to duggest, had maintenance money been diverted to pay for other things like chasing bin Laden?



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Just to put the record straight ....  [message #25937 is a reply to message #25930] Fri, 02 September 2005 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
davethegnome is currently offline  davethegnome

Likes it here
Location: United States
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 204




The hurricane damaged two large pipelines. That is such a large problem that the US is temperarily lowering the restrictions on the Clean Air Protection act (until sep. 15 or so). We are looking at gas shortages nationwide. This is probably worse given that people are universily morons in this sort of situation and all want to fill up their car creating more of a shortage.



It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
Re: Storm Survivors  [message #25938 is a reply to message #25878] Fri, 02 September 2005 20:02 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
saben is currently offline  saben

On fire!

Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537



The disaster is all the more horrid if it is white, Christian, heterosexual males that are dying, though.



Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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