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This will be on US TV tonight.
The Science Of Sexual Orientation
March 12, 2006
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/60minutes/main1385230.shtml
CBS) What determines whether a person is gay or straight has been the focus of social, religious and political discussions for years that almost always come down to the question: is it nature or nurture?
While scientists say a definitive answer is years away, their studies – including some of twins – are providing some early and interesting clues to inform the debate.
60 Minutes correspondent Lesley Stahl reports on this fascinating subject this Sunday, March 12, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.
Studies of a pair of 9-year-old twins raised by the same mother in the same house who exhibit opposite tendencies seem to rule out the nurture argument. Adam paints his nails and plays with dolls; he asked his mother for a Barbie doll when he was just 18 months old. His twin brother Jared has as many GI Joes as Adam has girl dolls and prefers his camouflage bedspread to his twin brother's pastel-colored one. He wanted fire trucks when he was 18 months old.
Adam's behavior is an example of childhood gender nonconformity, say scientists. Research shows that most children with extreme tendencies toward gender nonconformity grow up to be gay.
But is it nature then? Another set of twins, Greg and Steve, grew up in the same house. Steve liked sports and the outdoors while Greg liked helping out in the kitchen, says their mother. Today, Greg is gay and Steve is straight but they are identical twins with the same DNA. So how can it be nature?
Some scientists say the key to what determines sexuality could be in the womb. In a study of rats, researchers discovered they could alter the sexual behavior of the rodents. The rats are born premature and approximate humans still in the womb. Scientists manipulating levels of the male hormone testosterone in the premature rats could alter their sexual behavior at maturity, causing males to act like females and vice versa.
Another interesting observation scientists have made is a relationship between the amount of older brothers a boy has and the likelihood he will be gay. Studies suggest the more older brothers a boy has, the greater chance he will be gay.
But at this early stage in a still under-funded field, there are many more questions than answers. The emerging consensus among scientists, though, is that people are born gay. The exact mechanism is still a mystery.
By Shari Finkelstein ©MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc.
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13818
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Interesting.
I know identical twins only one of who is gay
I have no siblings. I am gay
I know a family of 3 brothers where the oldest is gay and the others str8.
So far all the anecdotal evidence quited in the article says "We have no idea"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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This is really another example of sensation-science. The 'evidence' is inconclusive, and whilst the theories expressed are not inconsistent with that evidence they are no more than tentative suggestions. That doesn't mean that they are wrong, but neither does it mean that anything groundbreaking has been established.
For example, valid conclusions cannot be drawn from the study of a couple of pairs of twins; very much larger samples are needed - and, of course, that begs the question of how to ensure that the 'gay' sample is truly representative, since those who are still hiding at the back of the closet are hardly likely to volunteer themselves. Another factor is the wider environment; if there is a physiological trigger it needs to be demonstrated that the trigger also applies in populations outside of the USA.
I reckon that the jury will be out for some years to come!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I think the whole things boiles down to WHAT DOES IT MATTER. No matter what they find, now or in the furure, its not gonna change who I am. Im not gonna miraculosly become hetro, because they found out that my mom didnt sing lullibys when I was a baby and that made me gay, at the end of it all, Im still gonna be gay.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I watched the segment on 60 Minutes......
To me it seemed a load of crap......
Alot of spin on whatever angle made the article look good.....
As for me when I was 6,7,8,9..... I liked playing soldier with the other kids in the neighborhood.... We also played with trucks and such in a sand lot as well as alot of baseball, football, hockey..... all the rough and tumble games of youth....
A gay boy doesn't necessarily play with dolls and paint his nails.... He will though if his mother buys him dolls and nail polish....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A theory was presented by which (paraphrased) "the greater the number of older brothers the larger the possibility of one being gay"
WELL THIS IS A FREAKING NO BRAINER
It stands to reason that eventually if the family is large enough one boy will turn out to be gay.....
It is not science..... it's the law of averages......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Actually it was the more older brothers you have the greater the chance that the YOUNGEST will be gay......unless he's left handed, then it doesn't matter.
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well that doesn't float.....
You are the youngest until there is one more added.
If you are the youngest and gay... and one more is born.... you do not hand the ball to the newcomer.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I agree Marc.
I don't think I have every seen a TV "news" show covering "science" use the terms "usually", "generally" or "in most cases" more often than this show did.
The one part of the show that made me a bit nervous was where they injected rats with hormones and "changed" their gender identity. I can see some on the religious right grabbing ahold of that one.
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13818
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I agree about play. I have never, ever, played "girly". I did undress a doll once and was very disappoiuted hat there was nothing to see. Later I found that this mirrors female real life.
I was wholly interested in an intellectual sense in girls as sex objects until puberty hit. Boys were to be played with. Girls were, it seems, to be fucked, accordmg to my school chums and I. And girls played with dolls and hoops and stuff. And told on you if they chose, even if you hadn't done anything wrong.
So, I am a stereotypical heterosexual. I just happen to be gay. I like th emale body aestheticaly, and to hug and touch. Ah, maybe ropugh play with other boys did it!
So we should stop kids touching kids of the same gender! They should only do "heterosexual wrestling", then we'll have no gay boys or girls, just happy, well adjusted early teen pregnancies!
I just knew WWF was a gay show!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Well of course WWF is a gay show  I don't like watching them roll around in almost nothing ewww... And who actually has a body that looks like that it's gross.
ANyway though, my bf and I both paint or toes, and nails,only some of them though-- every other finger. We like to match and happen to think that orange nail polish is the shit. BUt whatever ya know. He used to dress up in his mom's clothes and I braid our hair.
Maybe it has nothing to do with being gay, just personality. My brothers used to let me braid there hair and they would play whatever I wanted and there not gay. They just liked chillin with me (actually I think my mom made them play with me but whatever thats not important).
I suppose we do silly things but its not genetic or whatever we just like to do it.
I think I had to watch an older version of that same 60 minutes tape in school. It was complete crap in the old version and appears to still be complete crap in there new version.
I say fuck 60 minutes
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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What the hell does left handed have to do with it? Just for general information I have never met so many left handed people as I have at my school. On my orientation trip there were 9 of us and 6 were left handed. And I have since found out that people who are left handed seem to be the majority in every one of my classes
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Now that sounds interesting - provided that you can choose your orientation, of course!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Michelangelo
Leonardo Di Vinci
Warren G. Harding
Well, 2 out of three isn’t bad!
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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'60 Minutes' and the 'Queen Gene'
Wayne Besen, Southern Voice
Gay men are limp-wristed and may have a "Queen Gene," according to a controversial segment on last week's "60 Minutes" called, "The Science of Sexual Orientation."
The legendary CBS newsmagazine suggested in the report by Leslie Stahl that gay men are prissy and prance and wear lavender pants while they lisp and dance. Which can certainly be true, in some cases, but is this just crass stereotyping masquerading as science?
The segment featured two sets of twins. Adam and Jared were 9 years old and fraternal twins. Jared was tough as nails and had a collection of G.I. Joes, while Adam painted his nails and dreamt of pantyhose.
Steve and Greg, who are identical twins, were adults living in New York City. Steve, who is straight, grew up playing sports, while gay Greg "liked helping out in the kitchen."
The idea of studying twins is to show that "nurture" — upbringing has nothing to do with the outcome of sexual orientation. Indeed, you'd have to be a dolt with an agenda to still believe the outdated myth that homosexuality is caused by bad parenting.
"Psychologists used to believe homosexuality was caused by nurture — namely overbearing mothers and distant fathers — but that theory has been disproved," Stahl reported authoritatively. "Today, scientists are looking at genes, environment, brain structure and hormones. There is one area of consensus: that homosexuality involves more than just sexual behavior; it's physiological."
But the identical twins twins cast doubt on "nature" as well, since their differing sexual orientations suggest there are other factors at work than just genes. Don't count nature out, argued Northwestern University researcher Michael Bailey, since "nature" can mean more than just genes.
"There's also the environment that happens to us while we're in the womb," Bailey said, referring to hormones a fetus is exposed to. "And scientists are realizing that environment is much more important than we ever thought it was."
Michigan State University's Marc Breedlove drove home this point by showing Stahl how he can take a rat that scurries and make him sashay with a shot of hormones or castration.
"I wouldn't call these gay rats," explained Breedlove, who has the perfect name for a vermin sex researcher. "But I would say that these are genetic male rats who are showing much more feminine behavior."
The show also pointed out that for every older brother a man has, his chances of being gay increase by one-third. Additionally, Bailey addressed the lie that gay men are more promiscuous by nature. He said both gay and straight men are "shallow" and tend to focus on looks, but gay men simply have more opportunity.
I applaud this dose of truth, because anyone who has spent five minutes around straight men knows they are just as frisky as their gay counterparts. The only people who deny this are uptight fundamentalists. And they are really no different, except they have hang-ups and feel guilty after the sex.
Whether Bailey has hit the scientific jackpot or is a crackpot is open for debate. Many people bristle, for example, when he claims that gay people walk and talk differently.
True, your gaydar does not have to be finely tuned to figure out Richard Simmons or Clay Aiken is gay.
Oh, wait, is Clay gay?
Before Bailey makes such broad assumptions, however, he should put on football pads and collide with former NFL player Esera Tuaolo. This might rattle him out of his one-dimensional mindset and lead him to expand his research to include gay men and lesbians who are not borderline transgender.
Other critics rightfully question Bailey's potentially dark motives. He once told the New York Times that if it became possible for parents to determine sexual orientation in the womb than, "Selecting for heterosexuality seems to be morally acceptable.
"Selection for heterosexuality may tangibly benefit parents, children and their families and seems to have only a slight potential for any significant harm," he argued.
"His research is highly questionable," said Lisa Mottet, a transgender rights attorney with the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force. "Bailey's work is simply not credible."
NGLTF has also criticized his research on transgender people and bisexuals calling it shoddy and filled with unscientific assumptions.
Still, the "60 Minutes" segment, as a whole, was very helpful to the argument for gay equality. It brusquely dismissed the inane pseudo-science of our opponents.
But in the process of neutralizing the right, it neutered gay men. While we are cheering the segment, Bailey should know that most of us aren't using pompoms.
© 2006 | A Window Media Publication
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Not so interesting. I had to spend 12 days canoeing with 8 other people. 2 leaders and 6 other kids. That means 2 dickheads, 1 incompetant girl, 1 nice girl who wanted nothing to do with us, one girl who has since dropped out, and 2 incompetant leaders, but I found a bf there so i cant complain
Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?
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HI guys
I havent been here in quite a while but I do come around and brouse once in a while. I have emailed IOMFATS several times and we have emailed back and forth on some topics in the past so he does know who I am.
I didnt see this special on 60 minutes but I do have a comment about the subject. I read a book called: "As Nature Made Him" by John Colapinto if you are interested in reading it. Now personally I dont think we are born gay but I also dont believe we can be "made to be gay" either. I think some things happen to us in our early lives that can affect us in the same manner that some of us become afraid of heights. Now do you believe that some of us are born that way, to be afraid of high places or flying in planes or of being in crowds? Why is this any different?
Well, in this book, it documents a case where identical twin boys were forced into a situation where one was made to be a girl thru a botched circumcision. (Boy, now that should hit a nerve with this site for sure!!) It is a tragic story that left me in near tears many times when I was reading it. I also felt a rage towards the doctor who proposed this experiment to make one of the twins a girl in order to test his theory about nuture or nature. That doctor is still living I think, but if God exists, he should really be worried about his fate in the hereafter.
In the book it is documented how this "girl" would refuse to pee sitting down and want to stand at the toilet to pee just like a boy. "She" had a terrible time fitting in with other girls and both twins had a lot of problems growing up. When the boy turned 13 he refused to the "treatments" by the doctor and was finally told he was a boy at birth. It is a long story but it is a facinating book to read. Your blood will boil while you read it and finally realize that in spite of everything done to finally correct this horrible thing and counsel the boys, that the "girl" boy committed suicide in his early twenties and the twin killed himself a few years later.
I am not against circumcision as I am 'done' myself, but in may case I think my doctor was only intent on doing it partially as a cleanliness thing as I do have some skin there. I can remember as a youngster that I had to pull it back to clean but it had been shortened I now know. I guess not as bad as some have had it done.
I am getting too old to get into a heated argument about how we become gay as it is relatively of no consequence. I know how I became afraid of heights right down to the exact moment and it does me no good as I am still that way now. But I have learned how to deal with it all and I get along without having some unrealistic fear that makes me afraid to go into high buildings or fly for instance. I like to fly and actually took flying lessons, so my problem didnt prevent me from living.
As to being gay, I look favorablly on a world where we have tolerance for everyone. I like that part, where we can get rid of all that hate and prejudice against gays. But please let us have some tolerance too. Dont force people who believe strongly in religion to redifine what they consider as marriage. I would just appreciate it if same sex unions could have the same legal status as a marriage; we dont have to take the name, too. It would give those unions a legal status as to property and rights of next of kin and isnt that enough? I would be happy just to not have to hide myself from those around me and be able to be what I am without fear of being beaten or killed. Equality doesnt have to mean we are the same and I think when it is pushed too far, it causes a lot more problems for us all.
Well I suppose I should shut up now. I am not nick-named Sir Blabby for nothing and now you know why. *hugs* to you all.
Ken
Ken
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I need to make a correction to my comments as the "girl" was about 31 or 32 when the suicide occured and the brother killed himself a year or so later. I re-read some of the book in teh last day or so and I find myself on the verge of tears many times in reading it. You can find references to this very true story on the web and how this Dr Mooney had the twin boy made into a girl after the botched circumcision. These operations were still being performed in the late 80's and David (the "girl" in the book) went public with his story in hopes of preventing such tragedies from happening to others as had happened to him. I would sit in my chair and just feel so emotional about this whole thing I was reading and wish I could reach out and hug this guy and ask him to forgive us all who somehow allowed this to happen. If you are a sensitive person and do any kind of analysis of your own sexuality, then this book is really something you should read. Read it with your mind open and try to just imagine what this boy/girl went thru. I wonder how many who find themselves in our ranks of same sex attraction might be victims of such an operation when they were babies. Talk about playing God! I know that a lot of you are really militant about circumcision and of course this story really affirms what can be so wrong with it. I told you all in my first comments that I am cut but I know that it is not a full cut as I used to be instructed by my mother when I was first able to bath myself "to be sure to pull back your skin and clean there too", so I know that I am not typical of those who are cut. I guess my doctor figured to do it part way to help me keep clean but didnt want to take it all. I figure I am lucky.
But this goes way beyond any feeling of being abused by a circumcision. I urge you all to get a copy and read it. Be prepared for some strong emotional feelings to surface. I could also see many of the problems gay people experience in this story and wonder to myself if maybe when we are born that maybe nature was not so sure at the time. I developed into puberty way later than other boys my age and was small for my age, etc. I wont rule this out completely but I strongly believe we are not born gay as such. I think a lot of the problems might be that someone decided what sex we were to be when we were only a few months old. Of course it is well documented that parents can influence sexual issues with their children by being domineering etc. I guess I just want to cry for this boy who was treated so badly by those who should have known better and that they did it to further the pet theory they had about sexuality.....nature or nuture. Shame on us all to buy into some of those theories so that boys like David would have to live such a nightmare. Comments are welcome and I will reply to any email if what you want to say to me could start some fireworks here.
Ken
Ken
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13818
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The "highly professional psychologist" made the twins perform simulated sex acts with the emasclated one playing the female role.
He has been totally discredited.
However, at birth children of indeterminate gender do have gender assigned to them by surgeons today "to avoid teasing in school". I suspect it is a hard call to make, whether to leave them alone, or to operate.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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No, it's not a hard call to make. You leave them alone until puberty when their dominant charactaristics appear then go with what the kid says they feel right with.
I've read real life stories similar to but sadder than the one elektroken just related.. you'll find them on the i-net i think. transgendered i think it is called.
Teddy
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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And what are they until puberty?
Which restroom do they use?
No Tedy, this is a real no win if ever there were one.
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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those are but small concerns for OTHER people, not the ONE who matters most.
(I get my understanding & emotions from some reading I did awhile back..If I'm wrong I apologize, but..)
The point was strongly made because the article I read was written by the person who went thru the tortured life. I must find a link for you..
A parent's personal unconfortableness with such a small issue as you stated is trivial in comparison to the child's lifelong feelings, etc.
the kids, evidently, have strong inbuilt gender identity feelings, either male or female, & an outward operation does nothing to change their inward nature.
How'd you like to be forced to act a girl, etc when you feel so strongly boy, & at puberty develop lower voice, body hair &tc, but your sex organ had been removed at 5 days old, (or some similar situation..)
Of all the people in the world who should understand & identify with this subject, it's this great bunch of guys here! Me included! You included!
A small note here: I'd at times wondered if I should've been a female, due to my strong emotions, love for others, & other lack of typical manly charactaristics... In the end I decided "NO", i may be wierd but not totally bizzare! ha ha ha ::-)
I could start a thread on that but we've got more going than I can read now...
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Re: 60 Minutes Reports on Nature VS Nurture 
