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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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The comments you received back were from a few people.
some perhaps did not quite understand what sort of feedback was expected ,
and it took off in the wrong direction, put it on the agenda in 3 months and you will get a totally different feed back, (positive).
life is good.
re jack.;-D
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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Let's see what people do when commenting on "The Misfit"
I am unlikely to put this back on the agenda for quite a while. It was, after all, not rocket science.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> You took a deliberately different topic and arrived all guns blazing. You stated that, whatever the rules, you would say what was bad in a story.
ON.... that is NOT what I said.....
I said..... "If I see something done badly I will say so......"
In your ever present arrogance and controling attitude you forgot one thing about me.....
I very rarely read gay stories.... No time for such nonsence.....
So I will stand by my origional comment..... If I see something done badly I will say so......
>
> That was doing none of what you have just stated.
Oh realy?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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I will ignore the comments of a personal nature about my character. As, I hope will everyone else.
Just sometimes it would behove you to see when you are wrong and say when you are wrong much earlier than you do. I think all of us here respect what you have to say when you say it well and with consideration. I know I do.
I certainly control this board. That is what my role is here. I am not about to alter than. I may not always do that well, but do it I shall.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc wrote:
ON.... that is NOT what I said.....
Spelling error: you meant to write "no". And according to Internet protocol you shouted.
In your ever present arrogance and controling attitude you forgot one thing about me.....
The way in which Timmy administers his board is almost invariably an example of tolerance and 'gemuetlichkeit' (forgive my German). However, when the mood takes you, Marc, you offer perfect examples of arrogance and a controling attitude that will not let anyone but yourself have the last word.
I very rarely read gay stories.... No time for such nonsence.....
Spelling error: you should have written 'nonsense'. Does this mean that you have not read your own stories or that you consider them to be nonsense?
So I will stand by my origional comment.....
Spelling error: you should have written 'original'.
If I see something done badly I will say so......
Me too. Your posts in this thread have been done badly: they contain errors of fact, of spelling, of punctuation - and they reek of unmitigated arrogance and uncouth rudeness.
Oh realy?
Spelling error: you should have written 'really'.
Have a nice day. I shall be back on Thursday or Friday.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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from this bone.
The Boss is gonna do what he will, and I appreciate that without criticism (or further comment)
Regards
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actually, No..... I don't read my stories...
And In them I take the time to correct the spelling.....
This is a message board.... and if there is anyone here with the ability to murder the English language he is not I......
I won't mention any names.... Just look at Tim and whistle....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy wrote:
> Criticism implies balancing that with "And this one was rubbish"
Well, not really. In my view, that would not be constructive criticism -- it would be uselessly antagonistic. Constructive criticism would be "And this passage did not work so well, because...", and followed by a short justification. I have no objection to that, as it would allow the author then to make an objective judgement whether he agreed or not. If not, then he could discard it. If he did, then he could use it to improve his next story.
I have come across stories upon which I could not identify any particular detail that made it a great story -- everything just "worked" -- or, alternatively, any particular detail that made it a bad story. In that case, I would not think myself qualified to review it without further thought.
David
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>Actually, No..... I don't read my stories...
>And In them I take the time to correct the spelling.....
How can you take the time to correct the spelling if you don't read them? Telekinesis?
>This is a message board.... and if there is anyone here with the ability to murder the English language he is not I......
Most people have the ability to murder the English language, but they choose not to use it. It takes only a few seconds to go up and correct spelling and grammar -- it is polite and it makes reading far more pleasant. Or do you prefer to be misunderstood?
>I won't mention any names.... Just look at Tim and whistle....
Tim is not a name?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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I always will, Simon. I always will But what I want to do is to do "what I will" for the benefit of others. Otherwise there is little point. But in doing what I will I make no warranty about being right.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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pimple
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 375
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Greetings Boss
It is one thing to be 'right' about facts, and a crap shoot when it comes to opinion. Go with your gut. (almost like 'go with god' but internal).
Lets put this thread to bed, it has had more acrimony than most. I would have expected religion or politics to provide that level, not fiction - gay or straight.
Regards
Simon
Joy Peace and Tranquility
Joyceility
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Much though I'd like to participate in this experiment, I think I'm feeling too emotionally fragile at the moment to read a story which has such a firm warning at the start. But I hope to be stronger & read it later in the week.
NW
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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It surprised me too, but not, perhaps, as much as it surprised others.
I have run this site for eaons, now. And th eone area that is truly contentious is an opinion about a story
I am happy for the thread to die. I am, however, academically seriously interested in what people do with The Misfit.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I know this isnt my place, this isnt my board to run or make decisions. Ive made great friends here and life isnt so bad cause of all of you. I have seen this thread cause bad feelings between two people I concider friends and others taking sides. I dont think this is right. There will always be agreements and disagreements, but this is starting to bother me. Please lets stop and go back to being the friends we all have been. Im sorry if I have said anything in this thread that hurt anyones feelings or made them feel bad. I hope the rest of you will be able to say your sorry too.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Corrective measures is a part of the process of writing.....
I never release anything until it is finished.....
Once it is placed where it should be read I do not read it.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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One major thing about friendship is that good friendship also allows good rows.
For example, should we choose to become friends, you and I, I hope our friendship will allow us to be even heatedly angry with each other, knowing all the while that our friendship will not suffer because of the anger.
Of course this takes determination. We have to decide that the friendship is greater than the row. That is a simple thing to do.
Don't be concerned that people seem to have fallen out. If they truly have then they were not real friends first.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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I agree. Where one cannot say "By this strategem the author let me soar above the clouds" one can feel unable to comment.
I have long associated the word "criticism" with those who would correct things. Thus all criticism, whether allegedly constructive, is inherently corrective. An author who is experienced and bomb proof (are there any?) can take this type of commentary on stories.
But an author who writes and submits work here, almost certainly an amateur, almost certainly learning still, that author would not be bomb proof. That author would suffer. In fact some of our best known authors here have received negative comments about their work and have been upset enough to consider giving up rather than learning more about the craft.
My concept, therefore, was to show all who cared to look what was good in works, and to allow them to determine how that might be appropriate to them. We could have illustrated excellence as a guiding light. Instead we seem to have gravitated towards something so far removed from that as to be unrecognisable.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Guess I still got a lot to learn. I guess as long as it dont come down to cussing and talking about each others moms, its not as bad as it appears to be. Thanks Timmy
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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I have 2 or 3 readers who write me very detailed feedback like this one I just wrote for timmy. I know they could crawl all over my spelling and grammar and whatever, but they don't. They look at my words and they try to see what it is I want the reader to 'feel'. Knowing that a reader "got" what I was trying to say is the totally most mag feeling.
{{Hugs}} and Smiley Tuesday~
GH
[ps to Brian ~ Hey guy...I liked the thing about 'if you can write better than grasshopper, then do it, and if you can't, then shut up' Hahahaa!!
Good one, Bri]
***
Dear iomfats ~
My name is grasshopper and I wanted to write to tell you that one of your stories took my heart and tied it in a knot.
Your story, The Misfit, could be any of us at some time in our lives. My only hope is that we can, each of us, be stronger, braver than poor sweet Graham.
You used excellent symbolism and imagery building toward the sad ending to this tragic tale:
“(Alan’s folks) returned to their ordinary four bedroomed house on one of those estates where people live next door, but you don’t have neighbors.”
We all know the feeling of not knowing the people who are close around us, not being able to trust. It leads to isolation and a closing down of spirit.
“I began to feel Graham’s pain with this segment: “He was used to being the butt of jokes and being teased, pretty much bullied, since the moment he’d arrived. He’d always tried to fit in. he never understood why he was always the odd one out. Dammit he even stood up for the other boys, for the people he wished were his friends, when they were in trouble, or when the housemaster tried to impose some stupid rule on them. And he always got laughed at. Always.”
This little part makes me want to go to that school and protect him, be his friend, and it shows how hard he tries to be accepted. His feelings of inadequacy make him beg for attention from people far less sensitive than he.
“A small battered, ragged and much loved teddy bear on his pillow”
“Whatever they did to it, wherever they hid it………”
A strong image of the cruelty of teenagers and the fragile immaturity of Graham as he clings to his childhood and the love he could give unflinchingly to a small bedraggled bear.
Alan’s weakness is shown in the statement, “Paul was a leader and Alan a follower”. He wanted to help Graham, be close to him, in fact, even love him, but too late, he found his voice.
Alan had even teased Graham over the years. As he saw that he and Graham were very much alike “with a centre as soft as his own”, he began “to understand his desperate attempts to fit in, to be liked, to be one of the lads”.
The tenderest passage, to me, was this:
“Two of a kind in many ways, Alan and Graham. Neither realized it. Both failed to fit in totally with their fellows, but Alan didn’t make a prat of himself by trying to force himself into favor…………But, under the skin, deep inside, both boys were gentle, sweet and needing love”.
The scene with Paul, Graham and Alan was excruiating as Paul found fault with every mistake Graham made as he tried to appear knowledgeable about
famous people. We all know people like this, people who get off by hurting.
It seemed to be the final straw when even Alan seemed to diss him.
And, “If anyone had taken time, the trouble to see, to watch him, to care about him, they would have seen his steps dragging, as if he wanted someone to pull him back into the room”.
How many times have we all held our breath waiting for that one hand of friendship, that one nod of the head? I can just picture the scene and it breaks my heart.
“The rails went on forever, never quite meeting, heading off to an imaginary vanishing point always just out of reach”.
This was Graham’s life, going on and on with the simple thing he wanted always out of reach…to be loved and accepted.
**
I enjoyed (I’m not sure that is the right word, but it will do) reading this somber story and only wish that people could open their hearts and see beyond their own noses. No one ever needs to suffer like this and no one ever needs to end a life that is just beginning. You have made me renew my promise to myself to ‘treat everyone like I want to be treated’ and always look into people’s eyes…………..the pain is always visible.
I hope I interpreted your words as they were written. You were telling a story of sadness but with the hope that readers would grasp the thought that they aren’t alone and a day will come when they find their way. Thank you for writing for us. I am a huge fan.
Be careful & stay safe~
GH
"You have your way. I have my way. As far as the right way, the correct way, and the only way - it doesn't exist."
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Thanks Grasshopper, the comment coming from you means more than you can imagine.
The story midfit. I wish it was manditory reading for every straight person in the world. So they just might by some miricle, imagine what its like to be a gay teen.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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>The story midfit. I wish it was manditory reading for every straight person in the world. So they just might by some miricle, imagine what its like to be a gay teen.
By a very strange coincidence, I was in love (or maybe just in lust -- who knows?) with 'Graham'; reading the story has brought it all back to me. I think that slightly disqualifies me from making too many comments on the story, as I'd be affected by it regardless of how it was written.
From time to time, I wonder if in fact I'm not really gay, and I just think I am. But now I'm sure that I am. I'd forgotten how awful it was, six or seven years ago, feeling I couldn't tell anyone.
David
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Would you be so kind to tell me the author of Misfit?
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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The fact that each boy is gay is something that "adds local interest" here. It isn't about homosexuality. It's very much "gentlemanly Lord of the Flies", a book I hated reading, and still hate. If it is to be mandatry reading it is for other teenagers. Any other teenagers, of any gender
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A funny thing...... well not funny, I mean the way this memory came upon my is funny......
When I was sent to the boarding school, the first year I was there came and went.... There was this boy of my own age.... His name was Bob.... Gorgeous, tall, dark hair, slim but firm build.... The kind of boy that captures your gaze and holds it.... Not a few times did I catch him looking.... If you know what I mean....
When my second year began he was conspicously not present.... I made subtle inquiries and a friend, Walter, who worked at the school informed me that he had hung himself far into the wooded area near the town in which he lived. He was there for six weeks Walter said.
I always wondered.... But I really guess I always knew....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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hugs you. And him, though I never knew him
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear Timmy,
I once knew 'Graham', although that wasn't his name. I gradually suspected that he was gay, and I think he knew I did. To most people he was the outgoing, athletic, masculine guy, dating girls and hating gays, but he also was gentle, sweet and needing love in a way that he didn't dare to admit, neither to himself nor to anybody else.
Your story touches a raw nerve in me, and brings forward emotions of grief and deep sorrow. It is a true story, in the sense that to me it has a tragic parallel in real life, and the story gives me a feeling of despair when drawing to a close.
And I know that Graham could also have been me.
Sailor
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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We have here an unhappy situation, which constitutes a threat to those who see this forum as an integral part of their routine - a place where they can be themselves in the company of other like-minded individuals.
That situation is entirely the consequence of the attitude adopted by Marc. By any reasonable analysis, his postings on the thread have been deliberately provocative, rude, arrogant and in some respects just plain wrong. It is however perfectly obvious that - as usual - he has no intention of accepting any responsibility for his childish behaviour.
To paper over the cracks and pretend that all is well is not a solution to the problem; the cracks are still there, albeit out of sight. I am not launching a personal vendetta against Marc, but an appeal to protect this place, which means a great deal to a considerable number of people.
Timmy, I know that Marc has been your friend for many years. I know much of his background, and I recognise his virtues. For reasons which I do NOT understand, he can change like a chameleon from an intelligent and insightful contributor to an arrogant and egotistic idiot. In the interests of the welfare and future success of the forum, I think that Marc, like any other contributor, should be expected to observe the conventions of civilised discussion. In this instance, he has single-handedly destroyed your eminently reasonable proposals - proposals which almost every other contributing poster welcomed. The sad thing is that he clearly still believes that he was right and everyone else is wrong.
As the song goes, it's always a good plan to accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative. For example. in the sphere of management, staff loyalty and commitment is most effectively built by praising virtues, rather than by focussing on shortcomings.
As you may have gathered, I am no enthusiast for arguments about semantics. Positive criticism simply means acknowledgement of merit. I'm not even enthusiastic about the notion of segments. I am however sure that almost everyone understood the basic thrust of your proposal - that, whilst maintaining the principle of avoiding criticism of hosted authors, we could discuss what we have read with particular enjoyment, here or elsewhere. There are other sites to which authors can submit their work if they are seeking wider criticism or technical advice. This is your forum, and you can of course do as you wish - but one thing you could do is simply prohibit adverse criticism. That wouldn't prevent genuine discussion; inevitably, if someone claimed to have been inspired by a particular story, someone else might say that they were less strongly moved. That would not be the same as listing the areas in which an author was uninspiring!
I simply cannot accept that it is right that one man should thwart the will of the majority.
Incidentally, I have not contributed to the 'criticism' of 'The Misfit' because I feel that anything said against the background of this thread will inevitably be influenced by what is happening. I can however say that I would not have offered any adverse criticism.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Just because I am of one opinion and everyone else is of another does not mean that I am wrong....
What it does mean though is that I am whowly unwelcome here....
Your post is evidence enough of that....
Well fine..... take it..... stick it......
I will not be a bother to you again!
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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Marc wrote:
> Just because I am of one opinion and everyone else is of another does not mean that I am wrong....
>
> What it does mean though is that I am whowly unwelcome here....
>
No. What it means is that the behaviour you have exhibited is unwelcome. Nothing has been said about your perosnal welcome.
You are of one opinion, yes, but that opinion is an opinion related to the true criticism of works. What you have done is to flatten an entirely different idea with your absolute insistence on applying criticism when what was to be asked for was a selection of segments that are good and comments on how they achieved it.
While those two topics overlap they are not the same topic. They never were the same topic, and they never will be the same topic. But cossie makes a valid point. You have wrecked the idea comprehensively.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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When I wrote The Misfit I had a picture in my mind. I know the boy who is Graham in life. He’s a nice lad, well, man, today. But he was troubled. And I wanted to reach out to him, though I have never succeeded. Perhaps he doesn’t need it now.
That background is important because it means the story was written with tenderness despite the total banality of the ending.
I was given some things to fit in to the story, real things. They caused the imagery Grasshopper sees, but I never consciously wrote it.
I write with my eyes and ears, I smell things, feel hot or cold, dry or wet. And all I do is try to express these things. I wonder why no-one has “noticed” the first paragraph. Woefully short on grammar or syntax or both
“Hectic. Rushing. Cars parking and disgorging trunks, boys, parents. Some older, some not. Mostly Mercedes estate cars; a few four wheel drives; at least two clapped out old Volvos. And they came, parked in the courtyard, and drove off again having dumped their cargo.”
Six “Sentences”. How many verbs?
But why did it not matter? Or did it matter?
The second paragraph has no clauses at all. Phrases only..
Grasshopper has done what I hoped. All positive feedback. Not criticism, but accentuation of the positive. My reaction to it is simple. I am flattered but I do not believe it. I look for faults. I am encouraged to perform to the standard grasshopper points out with as much of the prose as I can. There are, now I look, some appallingly poor paragraphs:
“The term went well enough. The mindless routine of lessons interspersed with sport and food of sorts, and sleeping went on. This year was better than the last because they were more senior, less supervised. They could sneak past Housemaster's Rounds and lights out to do their work late into the night, or just sit around talking after he'd finally gone to bed. Sometimes they sat in the dorm, sometimes in the computer room.”
The second sentence fails utterly. We “know what is meant” easily enough, but it is poor. But it was not necessary to point it out. It was only necessary to highlight the positive, because, if I want to learn, I learn from what is good, not what is bad,
In fact there are at least as many poor paragraphs than good ones. A good edit is called for. Hard to do, but necessary. Yet no-one has said so, even with “no rules, no boundaries”
Deej’s point about banter is well taken. I have no idea how to improve that without a film crew.
OK, that is my thought process at just past 11pm my time on Tuesday.
The observant among you may already have read http://iomfats.org/storyshelf/iomfats/notes.html
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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cossie wrote:
>Incidentally, I have not contributed to the 'criticism' of 'The Misfit' because I feel that anything said against the background of this thread will inevitably be influenced by what is happening. I can however say that I would not have offered any adverse criticism.
I find it interesting that no-one has offered any adverse criticism. I don;t think anyone is holding back, so I am unsure why they are. It has many poor parts along with the acceptable or better parts that (eg) grasshopper pointed out.
Perhaps it means that the overall concept would work. The problem is I dare not set it running while the current issue is unresolved. A new author, toe only just in the water, would find negative comments unduly hurtful, especially if youthful
Now, the other matter, the nettle to be grasped. It is only the behaviour I want to cease. And it is the behaviour, not the man, that is unwelcome.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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I know exactly what you mean. So many of us grew up needing love. We didn't have to be gay to need to be loved by our peers, and it didn't need to be sexual.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Timmy, I accept unreservedly that is the behaviour which is unwelcome, not the man. The atmosphere in this forum is rather special, and like many of the good things in life it is inherently fragile. Civilised and courteous exchanges are ALWAYS possible, however strongly the parties may differ in their opinions. The forum means a lot to quite a number of people, and its ambience may be damaged severely by chlidish and egocentric behaviour on the part of ANY poster. That your concerns about the effect of negative criticism are wholly valid is amply demonstrated by Marc's own reaction to the criticism of his behaviour in my previous post.
Continuing to respond to your paragraphs in reverse order, I have no doubt that your concept would work and would achieve what you intended it to achieve. I don't quite see how circumstances would become more favourable with the passage of time; ultimately, it is your prerogative to set the rules. Perhaps a couple of sentences on the forum header would be enough to make the parameters clear?
Finally, looking at your first paragraph, I think you are applying Football Association rules to a four-boy kickabout! There is no universal standard to be achieved; writing is 'good' if it evokes the intended emotions in the audience for which it is written. Your stories were never written with the primary objective of retail publication, though there was once a possibility the Book I of 'Chris and Nigel' might be published. If that had come about, I don't doubt that you would have spent a great deal of time applying minor edits and polishes. In the field of gay writing on the internet, what matters is that a story has a plot, is coherent and easy to read and draws in the reader. Most of the stories on this site easily meet these requirements.
Looking at the first of the two paragraphs you suggested were defective in one of your posts above, I think it works pretty well. OK, it could be polished a little - for example, the final sentence might work better if the events were listed sequentially: "... they came, parked in the courtyard, deposited their cargo and drove off again,". But the operative word is 'might'; others may well feel differently. The main point is, it works very well - abandoning grammar and syntax enables you to illustrate the 'conveyor belt' atmosphere of the occasion admirably.
As regards the second paragraph, yes, the second sentence is poor. If you hold it up for inspection in isolation, it's pretty cringe-inducing! But your readers would not do that; as you say yourself, the meaning is perfectly clear - the shortcomings would pass unnoticed. It's actually quite a good illustration of the benefits which might arise from your concept. If a writer is congratulated upon the things he does well, he is likely to review his work more critically in order to maintain his standards. In the nature of things, that will generally result in those standards being improved.
I do very much hope that an essentially good idea will not be abandoned.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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How long do you give it until Marc returns?
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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He has not left. He is, I think, preoccupied with solving his business issues.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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No David, I was not addressing you or anyone else in particular. "Panic ye not," Frankie Howard might have said. It just seemed to me that the idea was generally killed off by any arguement about the whole thing. But yes, sure, some of the remarks got a bit pointed, which is not what the point of this thread was about.
As far as I was aware, this forum is not about one-upmanship or whatever you care to call it. To give negative comment is in itself a form of that. And before anyone comes back with some smart-arsed comment about that, stop and think carefully.
Most of us are only amateur authors, and we do the best we can to please. If someone doesn't like what I write, then that's tough. There are plenty of other authors; go read theirs!
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Before passing on to give my twopenneth on 'Misfit', I believe a word of caution is in order here.
As the arguement in this thread worsened to the point of cloaked anger, there came one post which should have deafened all of us in its warning. Sometimes people in the heat of trying to make their point, do not realise what effect it may have on others:
>>There will always be agreements and disagreements, but this is starting to bother me. Please lets stop and go back to being the friends we all have been. Im sorry if I have said anything in this thread that hurt anyones feelings or made them feel bad.<<
Brian, I have never seen one post from you that should have upset anyone - unless you called Cossie a Scotchman. Don't let it worry you that people argue, and DON'T take it as self-blame that it might be something you said. In fact sometimes your posts are more to the point than a lot of others. (That'll get me a lot of stick, but hey, whatever.)
Now to 'Misfit'.
Firstly, the only reason I can see why Nifty rejected is because it might have given some vulnerable teen, in similar state of mind, thoughts of ending it all the same way.
Other than that, it was a story I "enjoyed". In parenthesis because of course it was not a happy story.
The first paragraph: single words, short phrases yes. A different style perhaps, not necessarily wrong. Grammatically horrible? Look past that - who cares - it gave the impression of hurried arrival, discharging of offspring and quick departure of parents. The second paragraph continues in somewhat disjointed fashion, but still does not detract from the picture it paints. In fact it paints possibly quite a realistic picture of life in an English boarding school.
The rest? Well the only bad thing about this is that it's only too plausible unfortunately.
Sorry to be a little late posting on this one; I had to spend a couple of days in bed being thoroughly sick.
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Rigel
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Getting started |
Registered: May 2005
Messages: 9
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Just tuned in after several days off-line. In the spirit of constructive criticism, I'd like to offer a conment about the first paragraph of your story.
/quote/
> I wonder why no-one has “noticed” the first paragraph. Woefully short on grammar or syntax or both
>
> “Hectic. Rushing. Cars parking and disgorging trunks, boys, parents. Some older, some not. Mostly Mercedes estate cars; a few four wheel drives; at least two clapped out old Volvos. And they came, parked in the courtyard, and drove off again having dumped their cargo.”
>
> Six “Sentences”. How many verbs?
>
> But why did it not matter? Or did it matter?
>
/end quote/
In fact, the paragraph works BECAUSE of it's violation of the standard rules of English composition. In conveying the hustle and bustle of off-loading as school term begins, it flits from image to image so quickly that sentences don't have time to complete themselves. The inability to finish a complete thought or complete sentence conveys the multiplicitous confusion of the scene through its very violation of the rules of sentence structure.
I can go on to say that I found the story an engaging read, which reminded me not so much of my opening years at prep school (what English people would call a "public school" and Americans a "private school"), but my first days at a college where it seemed that nobody cared. The terrible feelings of lack of any caring connection are what drove Graham to suicide, and were all too precisely reflected in the school's reaction to the news of Graham's "accident."
But my primary purpose is to offer here an analysis of why the first paragraph works. It can become an instructive entry in a manual in the craft of writing a story; a careful insight into when and why the formal rules of compostion may be violated. That's the kind of insight that rules prohibiting comments on stories prevent from being posted here. Now, I can e-mail you directly with these ideas, yet I think they might be of value to other potential writers, who would have no access to them. That's why I find the forums of other story websites that have no such policies more useful places to post.
--Rigel
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Timmy, speaking for myself, as one of your authors (and as one admired 'par le grand Ecossais soi-meme') it really wouldn't bother me in the least what you guys said about my stories. I'm quite sure I would learn a lot from the comments, and probably get a lot of laughs out of it. I drop on in your debates on occasion (and just accidentally did so today) and have never been other than deeply impressed by your moral sensibilities, brilliant hair-splitting and humour. Not to mention that but I have the deepest respect for your own abilities to moderate the site. It's quite exceptional how you do it.
The big reservation is that in my case I have had many years dealing with adverse or positive comments on my writing, which has toughened my skin to rhinosceros-like thickness (though even now some comments get through). That isn't the case for all your authors, as has been pointed out.
Why not poll the scribes and see what they think? My vote is that if you were running the enterprise, Timmy, I'd have no problems with it at all.
Mike
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Goto Forum:
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