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In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarse heard amid the guns below.
We are the dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high,
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, tho poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
Lt. Col. John McCrae
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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We've just got a "Spring Bank Holiday" (whitsun). No Memorial Day for us.
Do you observe Remembrance Day on/around 11 November? If so, what's the difference between Remembrance Day and Memorial Day?
David
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Memorial day is a day to remember ALL who have dies in war.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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So is Remembrance Day, though people often think differently for some reason. Maybe the two rather large world wars confuse them.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hmm.
In the UK, not so many people have been killed in combat since WWII -- we weren't involved in Vietnam, for instance. So Remembrance Day is still largely considered to be about the two World Wars, though it also covers other, more recent conflicts: the Korean War, the Gulf Wars, the Falklands War, etc. I would have assumed it's the same in America?
I'd still be interested to hear the technical difference between Remembrance Day and Memorial Day, if there is one.
David
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Oh, Timmy -- another confusing factor might be the fact that 11 November commemorates a specific date -- the Armistice on 11 November 1918 -- which was specific to only one war, the Great War. It was then retrospectively fitted to include other Wars, both previously and afterwards.
David
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Ah, Wikipedia knows everything.
Apparently 11 November in America isn't Remembrance Day, but Veterans' Day, where they commemorate the contributions of everyone still alive who served in their armed forces. So presumably it's a more light-hearted occasion than our Remembrance Day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Day
Memorial Day is the US's Remembrance Day, remembering those people who have died in conflict, and it's observed at the end of May.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_Day
That clears that one up, then.
I don't think we have any equivalent for Veterans' Day over here.
David
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I have an uncle who died in Viet Nam. I never got to know him but I was told he was very gentle and was a friend to anybody. On memorial day I go place a flag on his grave. I think Im the only one in the family who remembers him.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Thanks, Brian, for the poem!
It is important for us to be constantly reminded of what war is really about. Politicians and their followers speak words like "honour", "glory", "fighting the evil" and "our great nation". The newsmedia make it into a game of words and positions, about who is in favour of Bush and Blair, and who is against, on par with other reality shows.
To ordinary people, however, war is about losing soldier sons and daughters, and an uncle, about civilians being massacred, and people's hopes and dreams being destroyed.
There is a Dutch website called "The Heriatage of the great War", with its own page about John McCrae and the poppies of Flanders, and with a few pictures from the trenches.
http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-poppies.html
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... the horrors of the First World War generated an immense number of poems, many of which can be found at http://www.firstworldwar.com, a site which is an absolute treasure trove of information about the conflict.
If you follow the link in Sailor's post, or the 'Prose and Poetry' button on the main page at the above link, you'll find that the story of how the poem came to be written - and was almost thrown away unpublished - is as moving as the poem itself.
In the United Kingdom, the best-known war poem is 'For the Fallen', by Laurence Binyon (1869-1943). In fact, the full poem - which consists of seven verses - is mostly forgotten, but the fourth verse is read at every Remembrance Service and is carved on War Memorials throughout the length and breadth of the British Isles -
"They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them."
'Contemn' isn't a misprint, although it's often misprinted as 'condemn'; it's actually an archaic literary term meaning 'treat with contempt'.
For my part, though a claymore-wielding, malt-drinking Scot, I've always had a soft spot for 'The Soldier', written by Rupert Brooke (1887-1915). Brooke served in the army, but not in the major battlegrounds of Belgium and Northern France. The poem expresses the 'rose-tinted ideal' which lured so many to volunteer and die, but it's pretty damn' moving, for all that. Later in the war, other poets exposed the appalling reality of life in the trenches. But here's the poem -
"If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England's, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.
And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven."
We may yet see laughter and gentleness in peaceful hearts under an English heaven - but I don't expect to see it any time soon.
Interestingly, though many poets died on the battlefield, none of the three mentioned in this post suffered that fate. McCrae was withdrawn from the front line to work in a hospital in France, where he died of pneumonia in 1918. Binyon survived the war, and returned to his desk at the British Museum, where he was an expert in Oriental Art. Brooke died in 1915 from blood poisoning contracted as a result of a minor injury for which he failed to seek adequate treatment. But all three left a legacy from which we can and must learn.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Thanks Grandfather. I never realized that there were so many children who served and were killed. I knew of the Hitler Youth but I never thought that men so young were fighting on our side. We are in a war right now we are not going to win. It has been a war of lies and decete. Bush is going to have a place of honor (in hell)and all his fundimentalist friends will be there with him.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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I see that I will have to prepare to spend eternity in hell since I consider myself conservative. Of course if you are also what is defined as liberal you wont be considering any of this because there is no hereafter.
I guess since I cant say I hate anyone at all (with the possible exception of Bill Gates) I cannot side with the liberals in this country politically, even though I do feel a lot of the same sympathy for the poor and those who seem to be the subject of persecution. However, I also feel strongly about forgiveness and tolerance and expect it to be going both ways. In many cases I see that tolerance is the main thrust of the gay community, but they seem to give very little in return.
If I didnt tell you I was conservative and we just sat and discussed these things most would tend to label me a liberal here in one of the most liberal states in the US with the exception of California. I tend to be charitable and give to all the causes although I could easily be on the receiving end of charity myself in a couple of years. I am not a rich smug horrible conservative American; in fact most of my life was spent as an electrician even though I have a degree in Electrical Engineering. I did have a business for about 20 years, but it didnt make it big because I had this weakness where I didnt feel right about exploiting my workers. I ended up with only my social security and about $20,000 in a 401K and a house where I still owe about $60,000. I just want to set some straight who might think I am some rich guy.
I am not sorry I lived my life the way I did. I did want to do some other things with it when I first went out from High School but life is not always going to be what you want it to be in spite of all your plans. I was not poor but not wealthy either; I tried to be happy with what I did have. I took my chances investing my time in my business and really, for the most part, I lost. I am not angry at all of you because of it; I made my own bed and now I have to sleep in it. That was a favorite expression of an officer I knew in the Navy.
I guess what all this speech is about is to just say that I find that it makes me sad when I think that I would be villified for having my views. We need more tolerance and understanding in the world and surely not more hate and intolerance as I see it every day of my life.
Ken
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Ken, I never said anything about conservitives. I said fundamentalist Christians (they are the ones who put that SOB Bush in office). We are in a war we cant win (another Viet Nam). Who in their right mind would believe that Saddam was a threat to the U.S.A. ? Bush lied to us, a simple fact, and it is us young men who are going to die for it. Your a conservitive, Ok, so do you think I dislike you for that? Get real! How you live your life doesnt mater to me. Fundamentalist Christians want everybody to live, believe, and act the way they say. So this has nothing to do with being concervitive. I think you are a nice person Ken and I have no problem with you being conservitive. Dislikeing someone who slanders you, or beats you, or treats you like dirt is not being intolarant.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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A "war" poem that no one has mentioned so far is this one by Wilfred Owen, who was killed eaxctly one week before the armistice in 1918. It is a bitter satire on religious humbug, so I think it fits in well with the discussion concerning nations and their motives for embarking upon a war. (If you don't know your Bible well, you might have to re-read Genesis 22 in order to fully appreciate the "punch line".)
So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
And took the fire with him, and a knife.
And as they sojourned both of them together,
Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
And builded parapets and trenches there,
And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
Neither do anything to him. Behold,
A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.
But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
And half the seed of Europe, one by one.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Dear Ken,
Of course if you are also what is defined as liberal you wont be considering any of this because there is no hereafter.
Now, where did you get that from?
Sorry for being so blunt, I feel offended by your words. You tell me, and Brian and everyone else here, that the implication of not being conservatives the American way, is that we are not believers. While some of us are, and some are not, I can only speak for myself, but your statement is made without reservations and therefore covers everyone. What you do to me is to denounce my Christian faith.
It is nothing new that I regard myself as a believer in Christ. At the same time I try to be tolerant towards people who believe otherwise. If I use the word "forgive" that implies that there is something that needs to be forgiven, but forgiving is so often the opposite of being tolerant. It is nice of you to feel sympathy for the poor and the outcast, but it is my firm belief, as a Christian and a human being, that, although everyone makes his own bed, everyone also has an obligation to share and not to exploit, to try to mend what has been done wrong, and to give every person an equal opportunity. Giving everyone his equal and rightful share of the pie is vastly different from feeling sympathy for or being charitable.
Shouldn't Bill Gates be your golden boy? Hasn't he done exactly what every American entrepreneur wants to do? He has made vast sums of money by creating a world-wide monopolistic economic empire, and by squeezing out competition by bullying and intimidation. Which is exactly the way the Bush administration are now behaving towards my country, which had and still has reservations against the war in Iraq. Your ambassador has been talking to our newsmedia, asking the rhetoric question: 'Do you want to be our friend, or not?'
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electroken wrote:
Of course if you are also what is defined as liberal you wont be considering any of this because there is no hereafter.
Ken, perhaps you would like to rethink those words. You say that as well as being of a conservative bent you are also tolerant. I find the sentence I quoted from your message to be intolerant. I consider myself to be both religious and to hold liberal views. Perhaps that is why I find that sentence insulting - though I am sure that that was not your intention.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Ken,
I'm sorry that you have a grievance against the "gay community" for being intolerant, and that you think that you are being attacked again, but, quite frankly, I do not think:
1. that this is the best place to voice it. Conservative or liberal alike (and, incidentally, conservative does not have to mean far-right -- the UK's Conservative Party, centre-right, would probably be considered liberal in America) -- we should all be aware of and honour those people who have given their lives for our countries. You have set yourself up as a victim (yet again) and essentially hijacked the thread. Given that this is a thread about remembering the fallen, perhaps you could have started a new one to voice your concerns.
2. that there was any justification for that tirade. Brian said nothing about Christian people or conservative people -- he only said fundamentalist people. I do not see why you need to define yourself as one of them. From what you have said, you sound pretty moderate to me.
3. as others have pointed out, that you, yourself, are being very tolerant. Perhaps that was deliberate, but it rather undermines your points.
I'm interested why you'd hate Bill Gates so much. In a way, I respect him -- unpleasant business practices or no, he has done extraordinarily well for himself and his company (surely the capitalist ideal?), and it can't be denied he gives a vast amount of money to charity.
David
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You are right, Deeej, it was a deviation from Brian's intention with this thread, and I apologise for jumping on to the wagon.
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Veterans' Day, formerly called Armistice Day, is the day the United States commemorates the contributions of those who have served in its military. It falls on the anniversary of the signing of the Armistice that ended the First World War. It is celebrated as a federal holiday on 11 November. All major hostilities of World War I were formally ended at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918 with the German signing of the Armistice.
Veterans Day is a much less celebrated Holiday day here then Memorial Day.
Memorial Day marks the start of summer for partying, boating, swimming, picnics etc. Most Towns have a Parade, Memorial Service & outdoor parties weather permitting.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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There is being "conserative" (often laudable) and being blinkered (Chauvin was about Napoleon) which is not laudable.
As long as one can also criticise one's leaders one is ok.
Here I felt Margaret Thatcher was a superb leader with lousy policies, for example.
Blair was a surprisingly good leader, but with more lousy policies than one might imagine.
I used to vote for the tories. I am now a floating voter.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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thanks Cossie
It just chokes me up to be made aware of the guys with good intents who went to war to protect us all but ended up dead.
I feel sure we shall see them all alive again. But w/o that great event that I foresee all hope would be lost, their precious lives snuffed out, their families grieved for naught.
God speed that day..!
Teddy..
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Glad ur not the one judging Bush..I dunno but i tend to beleive a person till they prove they cannot be..
So wassup with the Hitler youth.. well i know they were recruiting kids..but hey, don't they all? 'cept USA & allies? I have a Hitler youth knife on display in a local museum.. my uncle sent it back to my dad who was 12 yo 2 the time..
Beware any of you who get your info on the current US war from the major media.. Evidently they never portrayed a balanced view of they circumstances before going into the present conflict..because via radio we were having avid discussions on the pros & cons, the laws, the evidence, etc leading up to the war.
It wasn't until about 3-6 months later people started coming up with this George Bush lied stuff ..& none of their arguments held water as we'd just been debating & discussing the major issues for a number of moths previously! i've quit listening to all media now as this world is so nucking futs that there's little chance of sanity ever regaining a foothold now w/o a major confilict ..which is just a matter of time i'm sure.. So long USA..it's been a fun, short ride! Within 100 years USA may be history..it's on the fast descent now! Preceeded by britain of course..
Who'll be next leader on world stage?? China? Muslims??
I'm just hanging around to see what happens next! TeddyB.
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Way i understand it is we couldda won Vietnam if the gvmt hadda let the guys do their job & not hamstrung them with political correctness & micromanagement. Is our gvmt keeping the guys from winning the war in Iraq? Yes the fighters are using diff tactics & not following rules of war..
love to hear educated/experienced comments..
TeddyB.
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Hi Ken..
yeah.. one has to be liberal to accept diff religeous views.. We are in USA. Conservative religious views wouldn't allow you or i to practice our beliefs ( you a gay christian, or me a seventh day sabbatarian christian ). rather they'd homogenize all down to a conservative doctrine..
Kenneth, there are Christians of more liberal views..some say Jesus was liberal.. I think He had all the breadth of his Father's love but also stood staunch for the Father's laws too! Like our Liberty in law!!
Without self control there can be no self government!
TeddyB
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Teddy,
I know very little about the Vietnam War or the so-called "rules of war", however --
>we couldda won Vietnam if the gvmt hadda let the guys do their job & not hamstrung them with political correctness & micromanagement.
In what way was there too much political correctness and micromanagement? How would removing these have made it easier to win the war?
Surely, if an army is not properly managed, firstly, it becomes a disorganised rabble, and secondly, it leads to abuses of power and atrocities. If it had not been micro-managed, who is to say that would not have happened? Perhaps it did happen. (Most of what I know about the Vietnam War comes from war films, so I'm the first to admit I don't know.)
>Is our gvmt keeping the guys from winning the war in Iraq? Yes the fighters are using diff tactics & not following rules of war..
What are the "rules of war"? I would remind you that this is hardly an ordinary war -- terrorists spring from the ranks of peaceful civilians, then vanish again. The "rules" apply to traditional armed conflicts between armed forces.
Quite frankly, I don't think there's any way you can eliminate terrorism altogether, so a "war against terrorism" is hopeless from the outset. (That does not mean we should not be fighting it.) Look at the IRA.
David
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Teddy,
>Beware any of you who get your info on the current US war from the major media.. Evidently they never portrayed a balanced view of they circumstances before going into the present conflict..because via radio we were having avid discussions on the pros & cons, the laws, the evidence, etc leading up to the war.
I would not go so far as to say that all news media are unreliable. The BBC, for instance, is pretty well-trusted. It's not always completely unbiased (though it tries to be) but it does recount the facts without trying to put a spin onto them. That's part of its remit, incidentally.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Tony Blair and George Bush should have been better-informed than anyone else before the invasion of Iraq. In that sense, what the news reports said at the time, and say now, are irrelevant. However, if they fucked up, it's entirely their fault. It's certainly true that their "evidence" was sketchy at best, and even if they didn't directly lie, they were economical with the truth.
David
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Perhaps we'd better start a new thread, as I'm aware the parent post is not really suited to this one.
David
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Hi Deeej!
Read a history on the war in Vietnam. Though i remember some of the hubub surrounding it, I was mighty young so I've just compiled knowledge after the fact and it is yet incomplete.
Firstly the enemy fighters used unconventional guerilla tactics. It was swampy & forested & our equipment was ill suited too. Then the government insisted on certain politically correct practices & other outside discisions overruling the on the ground Generals & those that had the best info to make discisions how to succeed to win the conflict.
There are international rules of war agreed upon by the major powers of the world such as proper treatment of prisoners, soliders/fighters must wear uniform clothing, etc. However these seem to be disregarded by the smaller powers we fight against. Witness Iraq today. These rules seem to become outdated compared to reality.
Didn't the British Army used to fight all standing in a line & marching in force across a field of battle in their smart red outfits with tall hats? Didn't the soldiers of the rebellious American Colonies upset this tradition by their unconventional methods of hiding behind trees, etc? So also in Vietnam & now Iraq.
Teddy
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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I think that humans can't help being biased. Those who say they aren't biased actually are.. tolerance is a relatively new word & concept in popular culture but a good thing to practice. It is basically permitting others to have their freedom. Unfortunately our biases can lead to real or perceived intolerance of others..
When I was growing up it was prejudice we were fighting.. now it's down to tolerance.. we are improving somewhat aren't we??
teddy
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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I know what the rule of war is! Win at any cost! ;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Another useful rule of war:
If you can't beat 'em, join em!
(In this case, of course, I mean, compromise our ethics and our freedom and our good name in a misguided attempt to force the enemy out.)
David
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Memorial Day 
Re: Can you clarify? 