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You people been watching the news. BBC news just covered the murders in Iraq. Marines wontonly murdered men women and children. This is horrable. The US needs to get its butt out of iraq and let the Arabs fight it out amoung themselves and let the chips fall where they may. We need to stop sticking our nose into every body elses business. I want to hear Bushes slick answer to this one.
By the way someone said something about the UD being a democracy, sorry, its not, we live in a republic.
Ok Im thru;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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A republic is a system whereby a non-hereditary leader excercises authority over a nation-state.
A democracy is a system whereby the population is able to influence policy through elections.
A democratic republic is quite possible and in fact most republics are democratic, they are not conflicting terms.
The USA is also a federal democratic republic, federal because the federation of the original states still plays a large role in American politics. Australia on the other hand is a federal democratic consitutional monarchy. The UK is a unitary democratic constitutional monarchy.
I could talk all day about institutional politics and definitions, there's a lot more depth that I could go into about how each country runs on a purely organisational level, it's one of my main interests. Policy politics are fun, too, but institutional politics really get me going 
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Unfortunately people find it hard to admit they are wrong and this applies a thousandfold to our leaders. I can't speak for Bush, but I know it's true about our glorious British leader even when the facts are staring him in the face.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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For better or for worse we must trust our present leaders to do their best before God. They do have knowledge that will not be made public for many years. When Bush says, "History will prove me right this is what he means."
The connections Iraq had to terrorism were real & eminated from the government & Saddam Hussein. The major world governments agreed he was an imminent threat.. not if but when sorta thing..and of course he already had a very poor track record in all areas of civilized life including letting his country become run down & in disrepair.
It is an unpleasant thing we are involved in over there. The nature & religeon of the Arabs lends itself to continuing conflicts such as this. It is hard to see how we will get out of it now.. but a 'peace' will probably be forced, and alot of our troops will be removed.
Such seems to be the history of mankind. As long as Human's nature remains as it is we will constantly have disagreements. We have never been able to change our nature sufficiently to eliminate conflict & wars. I think we cannot without extraordinary intervention. But I have a great hope for that when the time is right !
Teddy 
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Handyman wrote:
> For better or for worse we must trust our present leaders to do their best before God. They do have knowledge that will not be made public for many years. When Bush says, "History will prove me right this is what he means."
>
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt, May 7,1918"
The man said it far better than I ever could. The similar sentiment applies, of course, to the UK's own president-wannabee Blair.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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A democracy literally means "government by the people". I don't know whether the people in America are broadly in agreement with what Bush is doing, but in the UK, Blair, our elected representative, is largely ignoring what the people say.
Not a democracy over here, certainly.
David
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A Democracy is rule by the people. A republic is rule by reprisentation (and not doing that very well either). Bushes rattings are in the toilet. Even his suporters are starting to back off. Im sure glad this is his last term. I dont think we could stand another 4 years.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Brian,
>A Democracy is rule by the people. A republic is rule by representation (and not doing that very well either).
They're not mutually exclusive, and I think there's more to the definition of a republic than that.
America is a democratic republic.
The UK is a democracy (supposedly), ruled effectively by elected representation (the Prime Minister and his cabinet). But it's not a republic: it's a constitutional monarchy.
>Bush's ratings are in the toilet. Even his suporters are starting to back off. I'm sure glad this is his last term. I dont think we could stand another 4 years.
When's the next election?
David
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Deeej wrote:
A democracy literally means "government by the people". I don't know whether the people in America are broadly in agreement with what Bush is doing, but in the UK, Blair, our elected representative, is largely ignoring what the people say. Not a democracy over here, certainly.
David, at last I can charge you with the cardinal sin of being too facile  . There are various kinds of democracy. The Greeks used to practice 'agora' democracy, where all matters were decided by the public at large in the agora, the town square. The Communist regimes sported 'popular' democracy. Britain has 'representative' democracy. That means that the people choose the leaders who will make their decisions for them - until the people decide that others should be making the decisions.
The fact that Mr Blair has made decisions with which you disagree does not impugn the democratic nature of the system.
Hugs.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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I think the next election is 2008
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Perhaps you're being facile in assuming that I wasn't aware that there are different forms of democracy? 
Greek democracy, of course, did not include women or slaves. Communism -- well, enough said. Modern forms -- well, there's not even any pretence that the people have a say in how things are run, except that the parties tend to pay lip service to what people are asking for (though that gives them no obligation to comply in actuality).
>The fact that Mr Blair has made decisions with which you disagree does not impugn the democratic nature of the system.
It does if you take the meaning of the word at its face value. Certainly if he makes decisions that are against the wishes of the majority of the people.
One would assume that if the people have given Mr. Blair authority, they would also have the power to take it away. But they don't, not really -- not until the next general election, anyway.
Some would say that I am taking pedantry far beyond the call of duty. And I know there may not be anything "better", but I still contest that what we have today is real democracy. I think it's very unlikely that real democracy ever could exist, except (possibly) in an area small enough for everyone to know everyone else personally.
David
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Isnt it amazing the great men who have understood what the office of the president was really about. I can undestand why Roosevelt was elected three times.
What Bush is saying is like Al Gore saying that history would show that Clinton was as great a president a Kennedy. Of course we all know that Gore aint playing with a full deck of cards, afterall he invented the internet.
A letter surfanced from Bush that showed he was lieing about invading Iraq. The White House spin doctors beat themselves up trying to bury that memo.
Anybody who believes that Saddam was a threat to this country, their elivator dont go to the top floor. The US litterally had the ability to turn Iraq into a parking lot. Even the UN said that he wasnt making deals with Terrorist and the inspectors said there wernt any WMDs.
Bush and his administration lied and manipulated the American people, plain and simple.
What histroy will show is that Bush is deceitful, bigotted, and a war monger.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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your so cute when your being pedantic.;-D
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Deeej wrote:
Perhaps you're being facile in assuming that I wasn't aware that there are different forms of democracy?
Me? Facile? Heavens to Murgatroyd!
there's not even any pretence that the people have a say in how things are run
I suppose that's the very nature of the beast. Full participatory democracy in this modern world would be almost impossible. Of course, technically, it's now more possible than ever before. But take opinion polls as an example: the people's 'opinion' about any given issue is notoriously fickle, and nearly always based on emotion rather than 'common sense' (let's not get into that one again!) or prudent policies.
Representative democracy is not the best form of government, as WSC famously said, but it is better than all the alternatives.
A few decades ago the Governor-General of Australia dismissed a democratically elected PM because he thought that he was misgoverning. Would the British people like to have HM dismiss a PM at will?
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Teddy,
>The connections Iraq had to terrorism were real & eminated from the government & Saddam Hussein
There is absolutely no evidence that is true. There were no connections to al Quaeda, nor has anyone unearthed any of the so-called weapons of mass destruction that were the basis for the war in the first place.
I do worry that you are subject to propaganda from your government and government-sided news sources without realising it.
As for our our leaders, the best that one can hope is that they did not realise this before they invaded, otherwise their already pretty sketchy justifications would be entirely void.
David
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I think the rest of the world looks forward to that with bated breath.
One hopes, too, that Tony Blair and his cronies will be out in 2009 or 2010.
David
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The start of this post was a news report on the BBC. A marine convoy was attacked. There was a firefight and a lot of people were killed. Now they find out there wasnt a firefight. The marines stopped a car with students in it and lined themn up and shot them, then started raiding the homes around and weere killing old men women and children. Yhern told their supperiors there was a firefight. Anybody who says this isnt Viet \\nam all over again is out of their mind.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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NW quoted US President Roosevelt:
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
Brian1407a wrote:
Isnt it amazing the great men who have understood what the office of the president was really about. I can understand why Roosevelt was elected three times.
Er... Brian, I think it was the 'other' Roosevelt.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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No mater who serves as President there has always been and I have no doubt always will be a large segment of the population that dislikes them. I remember my mother saying that when they announced over the radio that President Roosevelt had died a neighbor down the block ran into the street hollering "Thank God the Son of a bitch is dead"
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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"The marines stopped a car with students in it and lined them up and shot them" Commen Sense tells me that this statement is a lie.
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OOOOOPPPPPS, my bad. ;-D They were both great presidents
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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I watch BBC America. If its a lie then the BBC news dept made it up. Its also one of the news items on AOL desktop. Sorry Navyone, I dont lie or make things up. I might missinterpret, or overlook, or get confused but I dont make up stuff.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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per another thread, I *really* don't trust "common sense".
I don't altogether trust the media, either, but in this instance I think that the BBC (report is on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5033648.stm ) is something that I would trust just a little bit more.
I actually very much agree with Brian .. it reminds me scarily of Vietnam, of the atrocities that were committed by scared soldiers operating in a country which resented having had their presence imposed, under operational doctrines determined by politicians rather than military considerations, with inadequate control and supervision.
And yes, when I wear the white poppy on November 11th (the symbol of the peace pledge - see http://www.ppu.org.uk/poppy/white_index.html ) I think of all these scared kids, and the brutalising effects of war - Vietnam, Gulf Wars, wherever. Do I weep? Yup, it has been known.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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Brian, Tell me if I am mistaken, but repeating or quoting what one has read or learned from any media source is not considered vouching for its authenticity. So in my mind I was in no way implying that you were being untruthful. All I am saying is that I very much doubt that whatever happened was as stated by the BBC and AOL. As they say there is more to the story. This is just my opinion . If for no other reason then I feel the action described as being too horrendous to accept.
Gary
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Im sorry, thought you were saying I made it up. They were showing witnesses that were being questioned. I think they are trying to keep it quiet. All this came out at a hearing. The BBC is usually pretty good at gettin gthings right.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Navyone wrote:
As they say there is more to the story. This is just my opinion . If for no other reason then I feel the action described as being too horrendous to accept.
Myself, I find it easier to accept - in fact, ultimately less horrendous - that young soldiers in this situation could have over-reacted in this way, and committed an atrocity in a state of rage and grief for a comrade, than I do to accept the deliberate and sustained inhumanity that occurs on a planned basis in places like Guantanamo.
Yes, I know others will have different opinions. But, even though I've been a committed pacifist for nearly 40 years, my concerns are more to do with removing the causes of war than blaming kids who have been placed in situations that I think are beyond anything they (or anyone else) should have to cope with.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Guest
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On fire! |
Registered: March 2012
Messages: 2344
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We are fed so much bullshit from not only the press but our officials all in the name of the truth, no matter what we believe may be wrong. I think one thing we (The members in this group) can agree on is enough is enough and too much is plenty. Get our asses out of there.
Gary
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Poodles tend to obey their masters. Blair knew the 45 minute readiness thing was a lie, but still went for his place in history
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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It always worries me when members of the public pour scorn on political leaders without quoting any support for their conclusions.
It's a UK disease that every football fan knows better than every football manager, and it occupies a hugely disproportionate percentage of UK male-to-male conversation. And it's all crap! The same is true of political comment. Tony Blair may have made mistakes; indeed, I think he did. But he brought the Labour Party back from the wilderness to (so far) nine years in government. He is an intelligent man - if he were not, he could not have survived as he has. He has not been caught out in any scandal, which is more than can be said for many politicians in both major parties. As Prime Minister, he is privy to information which will not be available to the rest of us for many years to come. He may well have been misled by his Civil Servants - as a former Civil Servant, nothing would surprise me less - but we don't KNOW what has gone on behind the scenes.
To be frank, George W. Bush comes over as a dozo whenever he appears on television. That is not true of Tony Blair. There is no justification for dismissing him as a poodle; he may not be infallible (Who is?) but he has too much intelligence for that.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Let me just add to what Cossie has written that Tony Blair's star shines much more brightly outside the UK than - apparently - it does at home.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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but it's sure an interesting study!
From my perspective it's a fallacy that WMDs were the reason for war.
The media put it up there along with the Bush lied story..couldda knocked me over with a feather when i heard it..It's like.. has anyone been payng attention out there?
In this world the truth is hard to find & rare. The majority opinion is coloured by the loudest sources & biggest mouths. someday the dust will settle & the truth will be known.
In the meantime I'll continue to look at the fact & discern the truth as best I can!
Teddy
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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I agree Gary, Sir!
There's so much sh*t flying in this world, the one thing we can know for sure is that we don't really know for sure..!
& why is it that folks are so quick to believe a bad report about our own president, government, & men & women in combat? & then excuse terrorists & saddam hussein? it is negativity & self destruction of the highest order.. caused of course by the god of this world influencing men's minds.. the author of lies..the one who longs to see mankind destroyed. the one who is raging, knowing that his end is near! we fight not against flesh & blood, but wicked spirits in high places..
i'll shut up now..sorry ..:-[
Teddy
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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in all due respect Deeej,
no evidence at all? You make many strong catagorical statements that are false & I haven't the time to rebut them all..( :
Regarding WMDs..are the satellite pix of the many transfer trucks (lorries) not evidence? The "so-called" WMDs were used by Saddam Hussein's men against his own people. They not only had them but used them & threatened to use them more!
I'll shut up now..
Teddy8-)
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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Deeej,
You make mostly good statements, but sometimes you state things as categorically black or white when there's much nuance in between..
maybe it's youth..I'm sure u see it that way as you are so careful to state things as accurately as possible..
I wanted to correct the tone of that post of mine when I said "You make many strong categorical statements that are false & I haven't the time to rebut them all.."
please forgive the tone there..
TeddyB.
deeej wrote>"I do worry that you are subject to propaganda from your government and government-sided news sources without realizing it."
Please don't think that is true either..I study the issues & decide by evidence & my reasoning. I'd say you all reflect the major media.. which seem so far off base & negative..reporting every little mistake we make with glee & abandon!! Ignoring weapons evidence & all other causes & reasons for the war including terrorism.. As if the media was privy to all the secret info our spies turn in to the intelligence agencies! There are plain facts not being reported that support our own efforts.. I don't really care..I may be wrong too.. but I most often find truth to be hidden amid blaring jabber.. and again it seems to be..
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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What a can of worms that was! Unis here in Australia dedicate entire courses to that debacle. I can get into it if you really want
I'd have to say that in all honesty representative democracy is the best we can aspire to until the public decides to become educated enough to reclaim participatory democracy. As it stands the general populace is so undereducated and so complacent about political processes that participatory democracy would wreak insitutional havoc upon our modern nation-states. The only way it's going to change, and it is has to be a gradual process, is by education and politicians stopping all the politicking that they get up to.
The amount of knowledge required to legislate nowadays does make it a full-time job and if Australians, for one, I know are quite against any kind of political change. Out of the 23 referendum offered in Australian political history only 8 have passed. It is much easier for a populace to say "no" to a bill, than to pass it. If they even disagree with one statement in a legislation they are more inclined to vote "no" than yes. In a country of 20 million people it is hard enough to get passed and Australia is quite small!
Representative democracy is not "rule BY the people" but it is "rule influenced heavily by the people with balances to ensure that the majority opinion usually prevails". The only true democracy, I think, is really anarchy. The rule of the people by themselves, any democractic system with an established rule of law will negate at least a minorities ability to rule themselves. Of course I still believe law is important, but definitely not as important as conscience.
I guess that's why at the end of the day I'm a Liberal Socialist Democrat, in that order. I believe people have rights, firstly the right to live their lives with minimal intereference by the government (liberal), second the right to have the basics of life provided for them by the government when they can't afford to provide for themselves (socialist) and finally I believe that provided the first two criteria aren't neglected that people should be able to govern themselves according to the "majority" (democrat, though don't get me started on how far from a majority the FPP systems in the US and UK can potentially be).
Oh, and I'm not an economic liberalist, simply because I believe that the rights of humans are more important than the rights of corporations. Corporations aren't sentinent beings so I don't believe they should be given "freedom" or "rights", they are things that humans are entitled to. Free market capitalism can be good, but there has to be restrictions on big businesses, more restrictions than we see today. Unlike humans, corporations don't have consciences, so why do we give them rights and freedoms as if they do?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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NW wrote:
> "the deliberate and sustained inhumanity that occurs on a planned basis in places like Guantanamo."
Oh come on! they made someone wear underwear on his head for crying out loud..! We havent even used all the methods we used to use to get information out of them.. and our administration has even stopped them from collecting intelligence how they recently were doing it.., to bend over for the major media, to try to pacify the whining crowds who say, "that's not fair!!"
Those guys who swear they'll keep killing us if we let them out, are living better there than before,.. come on now! we're too nice ..to our own hurt guys! This is patently obvious! They blow up buildings & innocent civillians & we feed them special diets, give them lawyers when it's not required to.. & they sit back & laugh at us infidels & swear to kick our asses whever they get their strength back.
Duhh! And some still say we're the terrorists & we're the bad guys! ok sure! let the wild dogs take over the world!! we should pet them, feed the & make places for them..hahahaha
I'll stop now..
teddy
Life's a trip * Friends help you through * Adventure on life!
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I was thinking the same thing. The soldiers in Iraq, and soldiers world wide are brain-washed, trained to kill, desensitised to violence and destruction to a degree that most civilians wouldn't even understand. And in a war, the more mentally unsound someone is to begin with, the better, from the army's point of view. Remorse isn't an emotion that has a place in war.
Have you ever seen a boy burn ants with a magnifying glass? Or seen a kid feed a grasshopper to a pet bird? Or a mouse to a pet snake? I'm sure the soldiers that did this, if they DID in fact do it, saw the Iraqi civlians not as human, not in the same category that they are in, but more like animals, creatures intent on destroying "human" (read: American) life. If I felt my life and way of life was being jeapordised by an "alien" species I'd kill, I might even take pleasuring in killing. Think of a farmer shooting rabbits that are digging up his property. Once you dehumanise the Iraqi populace it is easy to see how soldiers may decide to shoot a carload of civilians for sport. Or how paranoia could set in "the enemy looks like this, it could be any young empassioned middle-eastern scum". It doesn't surprise me at all if the reports are true. But it does sadden me.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Handyman wrote:
> They blow up buildings & innocent civillians.
How many buildings have been blown up in Iraq, how many civilians have died?
How many Iraqi lives are worth one American life?
Which nation causes more fear in the hearts of the other?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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The point is, none of those illegally held in Guantanamo have received a trial, and most of them say they are innocent of any wrongdoing.
You - and assorted Government agencies - may be happy to just decide that they're obviously guilty, I'm not.
I happen to regard "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY" as a cornerstone of an individuals right to conduct their own lives without undue state interference: I really find it hard that the 'Land of the free' can so cynically disregard this fundamental principle as to kidnap - beg pardon, "rendition" - people from their own homelands to be held indefinitely without charge, trial or appeal.
Guys, I'll say it again. Those being held in Guantanamo are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY - the mere assertion of guilt by anyone up to and including the US President is not sufficient.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Teddy,
>You make mostly good statements, but sometimes you state things as categorically black or white when there's much nuance in between..
Perhaps -- though I think we are all guilty of that.
>Please don't think that is true either..I study the issues & decide by evidence & my reasoning. I'd say you all reflect the major media.. which seem so far off base & negative..
Not negative. Sceptical. If something happens, if it seems likely than it happened as described (there are multiple independent news reports) then I will be inclined to believe it. On the other hand, if something else happens, yet there is no independent evidence to support it, I will be inclined to disbelieve it.
The problem is that many of the "good" things are incredibly subjective and orchestrated by the government propaganda machine. Whereas the bad things, less often, are -- though of course one has to be careful to look out for propaganda from the opposite side.
>reporting every little mistake we make with glee & abandon!! Ignoring weapons evidence & all other causes & reasons for the war including terrorism
What weapons evidence? Please could you clarify what you mean by that. Please don't just tell me I'm wrong!
David
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Re: War on terrorism 
