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I got a mail from Matt and he is ok. He is seeing a councilor and has been told that if he remains LDS he will have to be celibate. but he also asking where Mr. Right is. The one who will come and take him away from everything. He has been told he will have to live with the feelings and desires and not act on them. If I understand he wont be able to go on missions because he has come out of the closet. this is a problem because tongue will wag and his family will be looked down on. Even in his mail he sounded so down.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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This is not counceling....
it is mandating religous dogma....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13777
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This is a mixture of great news and news of oppression.
Dealing with the oppression, any group has the right to insist in rules for continuing membership. His church has done that. It has the right to do so whether we agree or not. It is a "kinder" church in this manner than many others.
So he now has time to consider what to do. The need for hasty decisions has passed. The process must have been horrible. Having to fac this wuth strangers who have power over him and having to tell his family arlier than h would ever have chosn will have ben awful for him.
But that is the end of the bad side.
The good news is that he is not being brainwashed, he os not being cured, he has simply ben given the rules within which he will ned to live while h lives within that faith.
Lookd at clinically, he was celibate bfore, and most people stay celibate until college whatever they say about their allegd conquests. So, no change there.
Not going on missions is a technical bummer, but that is ok, too. He's just not going. So let tongues wag. One day he will leave the church anyway.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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M
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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I remained both celibate and entirely in the closet until I was at least 18 (I think it was 20). It's perfectly possible, though in retrospect I wish I had at least considered the options rather earlier. If I had been part of a dogmatic religious organisation, then it would have been perfectly natural to do that.
After 18, it is of course Matt's business what he does: and if he wants to live his life however he likes, he is perfectly free to find another more embracing Christian denomination.
Indeed, he is perfectly free to do that now, though I understand he has to bend to the will of his parents to a certain extent, at least outwardly.
Even so, I very strongly disagree that any organisation should be able to force mandatory counselling -- something that conventionally is designed to "fix" something -- when that something has been shown again and again not to be broken and not possible to be fixed. So I would most certainly not apply the word "kind" (or even "kinder") in these circumstances. Adults can be guided by it how they like, but this should not apply to people under the age of 18 who are forced into it by their parents. This is unless Matt really wants to stick with the church and renounce his sexuality, which doesn't sound likely.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13777
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The counselling is not mandatory. He does not have to have it. But he is also a minor and under the control of his parents. This means he is wise to attend.
He may then make his own mind up.
This is far kinder than some of the more draconian sects.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I have no idea what happened to my post. anyway, I told Matt to hange in there and be patient. If he needed to vent or just someone to talk to I would be there for him. I think he needs someone he can go to, someone who will keep him sane.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Timmy,
Just because people think they are being kind -- or their actions can be labelled "kinder than the alternative", it does not make them right.
>The counselling is not mandatory. He does not have to have it. But he is also a minor and under the control of his parents. This means he is wise to attend.
This means it is mandatory, for all practical purposes.
If you're already in a difficult situation, being told to do something by your parents -- whether the consequences of not doing so are explicitly stated or not -- you don't rock the boat. You do what they say. That is what I did when I was 16, even though there was no way I could have been hospitalised by law because I was not a danger to myself or others.
I appreciate that Matt's situation is not as bad, perhaps, as the situations of other people who may have posted recently. That doesn't make it a good thing, or the conselling worth having. If he is not allowed to go on missions (whatever they are) because he regards himself as possibly gay, despite being in all other respects celibate and a good member of the faith, then he is most certainly being penalised for something that he never had any control over. That doesn't sound like he has choice.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13777
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I don't think I ever suggested that it was right. At present, though, our role is to help Matt to get through this as well as he possibly can.
As we know it is hard to discover one is gay. It is very hard to be forced "out" before one is ready, and it is harder still to have to open one's heart to others, however well meaning.
We can resent what Matt is being asked to do as much as we want, but he is the one going through it. I am sure he is resenting it, and is very low about it, currently. We need to support him totally if he comes here, and remind him that the other side comes faster if he seems to co-operate than if he fights it.
Your own situation was blackmail. The school should be sued. Not by youir parents, but by you.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy,
I know you do not think it is right, but you do seem prepared to give the Latter Day Saints greater benefit of the doubt than I am, perhaps because you have had opportunity to discuss such issues as homosexuality with intelligent people from that sect. As far as I'm concerned, however, the LDS, fundamentalist baptist and evangelical groups, bigoted and repressed individuals, etc., where they present a blatantly incorrect world-view (homosexual relationships are sinful), are all much of a muchness and should be treated as such.
I am inclined to view Matt's situation in the same way I now view the events I mentioned in the parent post, as I see various similarities. I do not want to see something similar happening again, and if the "conselling" is based on dogma rather than science it is likely to be worse than useless, whether taken "voluntarily" (as it was in my case, there being no other choice) or not.
However, I will back down at this point because I understand that the situation is likely to be different from how I imagine it, and the most important thing at the moment, by far, is Matt's well-being.
David
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Brian, you're being a very good friend. He needs all the support he can get right now.
Going on a mission means he goes with a group of LDS boys to share their version of God's word. You've seen these kids with their white shirts and black pants riding bikes or walking. They ring doorbells and ask to share their faith with you. I suppose he can't go because it's probably an honor, rite of passage sort of thing and maybe because of the close quarters shared by the boys themselves.
He's gonna have to cool down and get a really good calendar. I know he wants some wonderful guy to come take him away but that's not gonna happen. I know it's gonna be hard for him, but he really needs to pretend that everything is okay now. It will ease the situation for himself and calm his parents down. Heck, I wrote whole chapters of JHS sitting in church, ummm, not listening.
Like you said, Bri..."He can accept it for now, graduate, go to college, meet Mr. Right, and have a happy fullfilling life...and maybe say 'Kiss my butt' from a long ways away from that place."
GH
"You have your way. I have my way. As far as the right way, the correct way, and the only way - it doesn't exist."
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13777
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I'm very happy to discuss views on fundamentalist issues. I think, though, that this is not the thread to do it in.
You have not backed down, which is good. You are simply deferring the discussion to a different thread. In that thread you will find I form an opinion more closely aligned with your own because we will be speaking in general.
In this thread I see us as helping Matt, and helping Brian to be a very good friend to him.
All I have said here is that this is a good outcome for Matt. It is probably the best outcome he will achieve, and he, his parents, his bishop and his counsellor have done well to achieve it within the contraints of their faith.
Let's not attack his faith here, in this thread. He was raised in it, and will currently continue to live his life within it. He has to cope. And he will cope well, and manfully. I am proud of him.
Start the new thread with pleasure. Let's take that discusson there.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy,
>You have not backed down, which is good. You are simply deferring the discussion to a different thread. In that thread you will find I form an opinion more closely aligned with your own because we will be speaking in general.
Right, okay, jolly good -- all I meant by "back down" is that I'll stop considering only the best possible solution, and rejecting any sort of compromise, where there are clear constraints within the situation and it is not possible to change them. I don't mean my opinion has changed, only, as you say, that I will defer it.
I'm not sure whether Matt is able to read these words, but I hope that at some time in the future he will be able to rejoin us and we can get to know him a bit better. A couple of years is not all that long, really.
David
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He appeared to be coping right at present. I dont want him to feel like he has lost all contact with other gays. I know when I first came here I had a tendancy to vent and I know you guys took it patiently and helped me figure it all out. Im hoping I can do that for Matt. to let him know he hasnt been abandoned. Im relaying a lot of the pertanant ifo to him via mail, so hes not missing the points. To my knowlege he cant come back in here, or at least has been forbidden. His rents probably still have a tracking device on the puter. I think his mind is at ease, but I know his heart and spirit are not. all I can do is be there when he needs someone to talk to.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13777
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He will make it. He's done the best he can possibly do within the constraints was given.
His family loves him. If they did not then he would have been treated differently. His church has not cast him out. Instead it has given him guidelines to work within. Thus, if his particular faith is important to him he may keep it and be welcome within it.
His job now is to concentrate on beingth ebest Matt he can be, getting the best grades, the best college he can, and earning the best living he can. At that point he will be free to live his klife the way he wants to with o restrictions.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No one should rely too much on internet aquaintances....
They are not very reliable....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I did indeed meet a couple of my best and most reliable friends on the internet, and I'm confident that someone will be there for Matt, too.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I'm sure......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Rigel
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Getting started |
Registered: May 2005
Messages: 9
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If Matt still has access to the web, I might recommend the story "Born to Be a Missionary" at Awesome Dude. http://awesomedude.com/stories/missionary/born_to_be_a_missionary_title.htm
Actually, it wouldn't hurt for the rest of us to understand the role of the mission in the LDS church, and the possible ramifications of being a gay LDS youngster. It would even be a good tale for Matt's parents to read, if they want to understand their son.
The author of the story has a great deal of experience with the problems Matt is facing, and might be a good person for Matt to try to contact.
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I got an answer from Matt. He is still ok and seems to be a bit happier. I tink knowing that we are here and that he has some kind of outlet is helping.
You must understand that Matt can not come back into this forum and Im sure his activity on the web is curtailed. I assume they still have the monitoring program active. When all this went down im sure everywhere he went was reported to his rents. Im sure the program shows hes going to yahoo but not what part of Yahoo. So for now the email is still in force. His rents dont know about him being able to talk to me. Im trying my best to keep him informed about whats going on here and answer any questions he has. I hope this tinny bit is enough to get him thru.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13777
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Suggest to him that he only sets up new email accounts on different email host systems the day he needs to do so to ensure that he and you can speak when he needs to. This way the tracker software will not be pre-warned.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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On this point I strongly agree with you timmy. I know we differ strongly on some things but I am very happy to see this response from you which is pointed in the direction where Matt can at least live with some peace until he is old enough to be able to make all of his decisions on his own.
He surely doesnt need to be at war with his parents at this time in his life. I guess if I were him I would try to do things this way too, but I don't know what I would do if things were pushed at me too much. If his church is actually going to do this the way they say they are, it may work out ok. If they come at him in a more vindictive and hurtful way, then that is a differenct story and I hope it doesnt go that way.
Ken
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13777
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All Matt needs now is security and love. He has the breathing space he needs, though it has not happened in the way he wanted.
He can do this one of two ways, now.
He can walk tall and proud, knowing that he is a fine young man and that he is loved by his god and his parents, and yes, by his bishop, too, in a bishoply way.
Or he can slouch and skulk in corners.
Since we know him to be a fine young man, I suggest he walks tall and proud.
The mission is difficult. He can start, I think, by "not yet being spiritually ready", and can work out, if his parnets agree, which college to go to that is well away, not LDS, and also socially acceptable. That way, when he is "meant to be in his mission", he will be away elsewhere. He can form new friendships, act on his orientation or not act, according to his inner voice, and grow.
This only feels like the end of the world. But there is more world than we know.
Ken, we may disagree vehemently about many things. What we can never disagree on is the need a yong person has for unconditional love and support.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I've met some of my best friends over the internet. And I've been hurt insane amounts by people on the internet that were, in fact, "too good to be true". This is a tangent, but the internet is such a safe place, but as much as it is safe for us, it is also safe for liars, thieves and cheats. Which is a sad reality.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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I think this place is safe cause of the regulars in here. Including yourself. I know when Ive done something on here that I shouldnt Timmy will tell me its unsafe. All the others help to. Your right there are weird people out there that dont make sense, but you just have to be vigilant. Ive made all my friends here. When I was at the bottom of the barrel, when I was so pissed that I couldnt talk to someone and get good information, I found this place. I was welcomed and hugged and treated like I was somebody. It let me know I wasnt standing out here all by myself.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Re: Kind? 
