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Is it possible to appreciate the naked or partially naked human body for purely aesthetic reasons, or to put it another way with the complete absence of sexual motivation or arousal?
For my part I can't and I find it difficult to believe those that say can.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Yes. I appreciate the aesthetic beauty of girls and their bodies, but have no interest in them sexually. But even an ugly boy I find interesting, if not appealing.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Generally in real life, I don't really appreciate the human body at all - I just don't find bodies that important most of the time. So, playing Frisbee on a nude beach, for example, there is no sexual component but no appreciation of bodies either - it's the interaction that counts. Unless, of course, there's a hunky guy involved ...
But certainly there are *representations* of the human body that I appreciate for purely aesthetic reasons. Examples include the sculpture "Fallen Caryatid with Stone" by Auguste Rodin, and some of the nude underwater sequences in the movie "Blue Lagoon" (both those with Brooke Shields, and some with the then-usually-incredibly-sexy Chris Atkins).
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Honest this is in answer to your question:
A few of you have asked where I get the pictures I send you each day.
In an earlier post I mentioned that I belong to approximately 1500 groups. That adds up to between 7500 plus e-mails a day. I use Outlook Picture extractor to pull all the pictures out of these e-mails.
I then just browse through the pictures which can add up to 10,000 or more a day. I save the ones that I particularly like. Maybe six a day.
I also save gay art (not photos) (Well maybe one or two)that catches my eye. I view over 5000 nude male photos a day including porn.
Just as a note to my knowledge none of them are under 18.
I have been doing this for over five years and I enjoy viewing the male form in every shape and size. I love the color of skin as dumb as that may sound. I find the pictures beautiful and erotic but I don’t masturbate to them.
If anyone would like I would be happy to send you some of my gay art. I can be reached at:
navyoneusa@hotmail.com
Gary
Navyone
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Yes. I generally look at great photography and cinematography that way -- colour, black and white, landscapes, objects, buildings, women, men, children -- these can all be equally beautiful (though in different ways) if the picture is composed and lit in the right way. Of course, much of it is in the quality of light and the eye of the photographer; but I can generally see the potential even when I'm looking at it in the flesh and have no intent to photograph. (That's a good thing, I suppose -- if I couldn't I wouldn't stand a chance as a cinematographer!)
The same goes for sculpture, paintings, drawings. I'm not any good at producing those myself, but I can certainly appreciate them; very rarely in a sexual way.
Art aside, as Timmy said, it's perfectly possible to appreciate the beauty of a woman without becoming in any way sexually aroused -- have you never experienced it?
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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That depends on alot of different things....
What time of day is it.....
What is the social situation.....
Is food involved.........
The mood of the viewer.....
The mood of the viewed.....
The atmosphere..... ergo.... an art class.... a play....
How many drinks are involved..... Et al....
Certainly, watching a warm body amid the glow of a warm fire is apt to evoke a bit more emotional stimulation then looking at a nude in a gallery.....
And..... Looking at a pole dance in a strip club is going to be more stimulating than standing in the showers at the local gym.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc said,
>Looking at a pole dance in a strip club is going to be more stimulating than standing in the showers at the local gym.......
Does this apply only if the dancer is Polish? Or will any Eastern Europeans do? 
David
Disclaimer: This is a (bad) joke. I'm not trying to wind you up, Marc.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Bad joke..... good joke.....
You're not funny either way.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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It's funnier than you pretending to believe that because Timmy said, "[Lauder's books] do take some reading, though," he meant that other books do not require any at all.
Just thought I ought to point that out.
We could have a poll and see what everyone else thought. Or perhaps a Pole?
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Actualy no.....
You aren't funny on any level..... at any time.....
Blisteringly dry is the best of it.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Whitop
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Toe is in the water |
Location: USA
Registered: June 2005
Messages: 73
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Oh yes! (And not only because of my age.) Photos,sculpture,film, ballet, a Japanese bath or Korean Sauna dock - Young mature men and women, although I prefer the latter narrow of hip and small of breast. A favorite memory of years ago was the shower room of my son's New England boarding school after a football game - totally non-arousing, but gorgeous!
Mac
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I'm not going to attempt to recount my fairly colourful life history here - most of you have heard it before. But I'm time-warped. There's no doubt that my greatest achievement in life has been to bring up two children to successful adulthood, nor that the process of doing so has given me more pleasure than anything else I have ever done. Despite that, I have always been aware that I was essentially gay, and that I had allowed myself to be deflected by social pressures. I don't regret it, but I'm always conscious of it and in some perverse way I feel that I have betrayed myself and the rest of the gay community. Yet I know this isn't true; I have always remained gay-friendly and I have always tried to do my best for those in need of help.
Ultimately, like several others who come, or in the past have come to this board, I found peace by 'coming out' to my wife. But I have strong ethical convictions, and I'm absolutely monogamous, so my extra-marital thoughts simply reflect the past as I remember it. I cannot envisage a gay relationship now; I have relegated myself to the back benches! But I am very much attracted - though only as a voyeur - to naked males of the age I was when I was actively gay - from 12 to my mid 20s. And, as I had a few str8 deflections in those years, I find naked females in that age group almost equally arousing. I dislike intensely adult-child pornography; I don't want to be 'in on the act'. I'm reminded of a 1960s hit by the black US group 'The Coasters' - 'Poison Ivy' - 'You can look but you better not touch'. That sums me up perfectly.
So, Nigel, I have to admit that I find pictorial representations of naked pubescent teenagers of either sex hugely arousing and stimulating, but only from a distance. I just want a nostalgic reminder, I don't want to participate!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I've just noticed (days later) that you did stipulate the naked or partially naked body. The first part of my answer was in more general terms: that anything can be beautiful regardless of society's perceptions of what is attractive and what is not. An ugly person can be beautiful if a photograph reveals something attractive in his or her character.
I personally find that nakedness for nakedness's sake adds a certain amount of artificiality to a photograph. Beauty, in my eyes, is dependent on naturalness in expression, pose, situation, light; and nakedness -- except in the most genuine and intimate of situations -- is usually an affectation. Most pornographic material is very unrealistic and poorly photographed, and I would not give it the time of day.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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The thing that perplexes me is when one looks at a lad and it swicthes from "What a cute kid" to "Wow, that boy is hot and my senses are interested even if my intellect reminds me that it is unlawful and inappropriate".
I was thinking about this yesterday while three lads of 11 or so were playing outisde my house while I was tinkering with a car.
None of the three was sexually appealing, but one was going to be in a few years. That I could tell easily from his bearing, though not from his face, which was ocncealed by an unruly mop of hair.
But what switches (eg) this kid from a kid whose role is to play and not be at all sexualised into someone who becomes an object of attraction?
And yes, I know that he is 5 years under age, let alone so much younger than I that anything escept window shopping is both unlawful and highly inappropriate even when he is of age. That is not the point in question.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I went to a web site some time ago and in the home page it had this, "Never harm a boy, he is Gods most beautiful creation.". There is an artist, sorry forget his name, who said " the beauty of the male form far surpasses anyting else".
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I have always felt the same.
But when does the child turn into an object that is not simply beautiful, but is alluring? What is it that alters?
BTW I am not going to put a PS every time about it being unlawful when the child is under age and inappropriate from one of my years to have a sexual relationship with a child on every post here. Please take that as read.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I dont think the child becomes, Alluring is in the eye of the beholder.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I'm not making myself clear. Take you, or take me, and let us imagine we are each an adonis today. At 1 year old we were babies, at 5 we were little kids, at 8,9,10,11, 12 we were increasingly big kids. If we'd both been the same age back then we might have done the "boys wil be boys" stuff, but we'd not have cared what the other looked like, we'd just have done stuff, if we did it at all, with a friend.
But sometime after the age of 12 we might have looked at the other and though OMG he is so HOT.
The scene I've painted is one of joint development, so part of the awareness of hotness is in the hormones of the beholder.
Now be several years older than me. Say 5 years. I'm 10 and you are 15. I'm a little (well, I think I'm big) kid. Your hormones don't say "Damn, he's hot" just because I'm a little kid (and I sure do not want you to find me hot because I'm in to bike riding and kid stuff. Sex is not on my agenda). It;s on yours, and has been since puberty, so it's not really to do with your hormones. What happens as I grow older, because at some point you will find me hot (remember, I have said we are each an adonis). At that point, what happens? What makes me a kid one day and hot the next? I'm 16 and you're 21 and we're legal. So why am I hot now when I wasn't hot at 12, even though I was handsome then?
Does that make more sense as a set of questions?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I think part of the answer is that at prepuberty the child is not a sexual animal. After (probably during) puberty all the reproductive equipment is in place and according to nature the child is no longer a child. The law does not reflect this, but then nature is not subject to human law.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Timmy said,
>What makes me a kid one day and hot the next? I'm 16 and you're 21 and we're legal. So why am I hot now when I wasn't hot at 12, even though I was handsome then?
You're not a kid one day and hot the next. There is a period of transition which may last months or years. There are several factors at play that manifest themselves physically. The face becomes less rounded and childish and more masculine, the voice breaks, muscles develop, the body loses fat. As well as all the rest. Some of these are very subtle, but the human brain is very good at spotting things like that. Also, the child potentially becomes aware of its sexuality and starts to communicate it in unconscious or conscious ways: whether appropriate or not, these are things you pick up if you look out for them in older people. A precocious child can be attractive by its mannerisms well before he or she "should" be.
That said, I'm also inclined to agree with Brian that alluring is in the eye of the beholder. I have no idea where the programming for individual cases comes from (and I doubt anyone does), but there is a great deal more to sexuality than "gay" or "straight". Within "gay" there are dozens of variants: there are some people who are only attracted to old men; there are others who are mostly attracted to teenagers and young adults; there are people attracted to big, burly men with beards; there are unfortunate people who are only attracted to prepubescent children. We can't lump them all into the same category. All will have different ideas of what is "hot" and what is not.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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But I am not looking at reproductive equipment. Just at the lad who is a child one day and is attractive the next. Clothed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy said,
>I am not looking at reproductive equipment. Just at the lad who is a child one day and is attractive the next. Clothed.
Er... I don't think you're ever going to find one of them. Not even a hypothetical child. In actuality, you'll find one that is fairly attractive one day, and infinitesimally more attractive the next day. Perhaps in a couple of years or so he'll be stunning, but not overnight. Or one that is not sexually attractive one day, and ... er, not attractive the next day either.
Where are we going with this?
David
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Timmy wrote
>But I am not looking at reproductive equipment.<
That is irrelevant, Deeej elaborated the point very well. Perhaps you misunderstand. It's the whole effect of everything that goes with adolescence that makes the child into an attractive (in its literal sense) adult.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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not so much misunderstanding as asking
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But what about the ugly ones?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I suspect it varies with the age of the viewer, as well as the age of object of attraction.
The earliest that I can remember lusting after other males who I found specifically physically desirable (and would at that age have described as "handsome", because my vocabulary didn't then include the words "hot" or "sexy") is aged nearly seven: my first year at prep school. And my awareness of physical attractiveness was not age-limited - it included both a couple of classmates, and one of the teaching staff. Interestingly, the classmates were not close friends, and I never did anything sexual with them - the start of a pattern of being very scared (and tongue-tied) in the presence of beautiful boys/men.
It may be that sexuality in young kids is usually unconscious, or at least un-self-conscious ... but I think some kids have the "wow" factor from an early age. And - though I am not physically interested in little kids (I'm an exclusive "bottom", and little kids would just be too little to do it for me, apart from anything else!) - I can certainly recognise it when I see it.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... when I posted on this thread last night.
Short answers -
- to Nigel's question: I doubt it very much. And, as (hopefully!) explained in my post on the spin-off thread, I certainly don't believe 'Mouse's' protestations.
- to Timmy's question: There can be no answer, because beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I would argue that it's perfectly possible to be - shall we say, stirred? - by a boy of eight or nine; not because we entertain any thought of sexual activity, but simply because we see the evidence of nascent beauty yet to come. Each of us is different. Some will see puberty as a time of flowering to perfection; others will see it as a time when perfection withers, and still others won't give a toss because their interest will not be aroused until the boy is considerably older. It logically follows that there can be no specific point of development when 'cute' becomes 'hot'; each of us will find our own watershed, and even then it won't be even remotely precise. Oh, and by the way, I'm speaking from the experience of my younger days - now, pretty well everyone's attractive, but absolutely no-one is a target!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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