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Marc said,
>Why couldn't a legitimate actor delve into erotic film?
Erotic film? Pornography?
I do not know what definition you are using, but there is certainly a divide in the industry between films where the primary purpose is sexual titillation and mainstream drama. There are a very few somewhere in the middle, but the vast majority fall into one camp or the other.
>Is this a hard and fast rule or just your prediction?
>
>After all, work is work..... and you have to eat.....
I think you misunderstood me. I never said it was a rule that "legitimate actors" would not work in pornography. I was simply saying that it would be damn difficult to end up working on pornographic films without noticing. The industry segments are very different.
I wasn't going to mention it, but since you have started to insult me there doesn't seem to be much point in being tactful any more. I wonder if you have ever noticed that whenever a well-known mainstream actor admits to having worked on a porn film in his or her youth, there is always a great deal of media glee? This certainly seems to be a strong hint that legitimate actors are not "supposed" to work in that sort of material.
>A crew member....... I thought you were the director.....
>
>Oh well.....
It's "sling gratuitous insults" day, is it? Oh, I forgot, that's every day if you're Marc. Firstly, a director is, during the shoot, also a crew member. Secondly, my ambitions are to become not a director but a director of photography, who is head of the crew and certainly a crew member by any definition. (You make yourself look extremely ignorant of the film industry if you do not know the difference.) Thirdly, there are dozens of roles on a film set and it takes years to work one's way up to DoP. In the British independent film industry, I have worked as a location manager, unit manager and runner, and, while not senior roles, these are certainly genuine members of the crew.
David
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That's interesting - I'm not sure that a terribly hard-and-fast distinction of that kind exists in Theatre.
I've always been very much legitimate professional theatre (on the technical side), but in the West End it's a small world and I often helped out on curious events that mates of mine were involved in. Everything from Madame JoJo's in its prime to fetishwear fashion shows (actually, going back to the original topic of this thread, rubbing ice-cubes on a female models breasts to achieve the required level of nipple erection could kinda be an example of having an aesthetic but definitely not sexual interest in another human body). And maybe the Chippendales count as soft porn ... I've done around a dozen Chippendales gigs.
It may be different for actors - I'm not sure that any of the young guys that have played "get-all-your-kit-off" roles in major legit dramas have found it altogether helpful to their careers.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I was proud of it for a while, but that was beaten out of me by everyone else in my house at school. They all had scholarships as well, you see, and most of them were cleverer than me. 
At university, the best way to tell how bright someone is is to talk to them, work with them, and get to know them. Academic results aren't necessarily a giveaway, partly because no-one ever discusses them and partly because results are almost proportional to the amount of time you devote to a subject, rather than your actual intelligence.
Finally, my industry, the film industry, has a deep suspicion of qualifications. If a person has a lot of qualifications but no actual experience, he's far less likely to be employed than someone with no qualifications but masses of experience, or, even better, a showreel.
David
P.S. Honestly, Brian, there is nothing wrong with being proud at being good at something. I think it is excellent that you have done so well. I do hope that you'll be able to come to Oxbridge, as you're clearly up to it.
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Thanks David, I know your not being critical.
I love your new signature. Im gonna guess thats from a winni the pooh book. By the way who has the actual winni the pooh and Eyor?
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Segments....... oh my.....
Erotic filming is very different from legitimate productions......
As many as 8 cameras can be used from a plethora of angles as well as various lenses for varied degrees of nearness to the action.....
Add to that 3 or 4 still cameras as well as rotating sets and with just 5 players up to 15 films can be produced when all the editing is over all in just one day.....
The going rate for players is starting at $500.00 per day and can go up to several thousand....... The dependant factors there are a willingness to do more than the run of the mill, unusualy beautiful features and or but not limited to exceptional equipment.
Oh, and they also provide a nice buffet lunch as well....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well,
Don't you have to produce film for your educational requirements?
I was under the impression that you had indeed produced and directed some........
oh well....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Well, if that's what you're talking about, then it is even less mainstream than I thought. I have to say I have not been aware of anything upon those lines taking place in the UK, but that industry has nothing to do with independent film drama or film as art. Maybe this mainly takes place in America; I would not know.
I find it difficult to believe that any self-respecting thespian would walk off the set of Hamlet or King Lear and into something like that, so I'm not quite sure why you brought up the subject of "legitimate actors"...
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Heterosexual porn is easy to make in the UK, but homosexual porn requires a third perosn to be present in order to operate the technical equipment. And, unless it has been changed, only 2 people may be present in the same building during homosexual acts.
This makes brit gay porn rather challenging to make
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc said,
>Don't you have to produce film for your educational requirements?
>I was under the impression that you had indeed produced and directed some........
Produced, no (not at university, anyway -- location managing is a form of production, I suppose).
Directed, a little (mostly test footage, short scenes, documentary footage). On longer (10+ minute) productions I have always either been director of photography or sound designer.
I am currently writing a script that I hope to put into production (as both director and producer) over the next few months for part of my assessment. I'll let you know how that turns out.
David
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Are you sure that's still current? They equalised the ages of consent not all that long ago, so you would have thought they would also have changed things like that at the same time. Otherwise it is clear discrimination.
I would also have said that such a requirement infringes the participants' right to privacy.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I don't know about now, but in the late 60's and early 70's alot of work was done in London warehouses.......
Legitimacy..... Well that is in the eye of the beholder.....
There are many players in the unlegitimate film industry that are actualy proud of their accomplishments.....
They may well not be up to your standards but then they are not modeling themselves after them are they.....
Legitimate film is a wonderful thing and I enjoy a good movie as well as any other person.... We have a good collection of our favorites here at home and it is ever increasing.... (we like vintage film from the 60's and before) but we also have a few hundred from more contemporary times.
I just don't understand why some people have to look down their noses at other people doing their best at something off the main path.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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If there was an appology there I probably would accept it.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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I have no doubt that there are plenty of people in any industry who have reason to be proud of their accomplishments.
I do not and have not ever watched porn (beyond brief moments) so if I am inclined to appear snooty it is because I do not understand its attraction.
On the other hand, mainstream film I do understand, or at least I understand it sufficiently well to want to devote my life to it. I will readily admit I am biased in that regard.
David
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To be frank, I am not quite sure what to apologise for. I appreciate I've been a bit insensitive, and I apologise for that. To address some specific points:
I think the thing you had a problem with was that I said that as a crew member I would not want to be part of that industry. I have now explained that is because I don't find pornography at all erotic and have no interest in it. Moreover, cinematography is all about interesting and varied, internal and external, lighting, camera and grip situations, and I do not think you find those in mass-produced pornography (though it might be interesting to try...).
Now that you have explained, I continue to think the probability that a serious actor could accidentally find himself in that industry (from theatre or mainstream film) is not high at all. That is not to say that it is not very lucrative for those that do make the jump.
I have also never maintained that I want to direct (at this point in time, though I take an interest in it): my main interest is cinematography (lighting for camera).
David
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... always seems to provoke misunderstanding and emotion.
Let's make one thing clear from the outset; I'm not in any way defending the actions of the abuser, I am concerned only with the extent of the damage to the abused child.
Unhappily, hard, academic evidence is lacking; I did read somewhere that some research was to be conducted in either Holland or Denmark, but I've never seen any published results. In the absence of research, the floor is surrendered to emotion and assumption.
The best that we can do is to look at the available facts from cases which have come to court - and when we do so it becomes increasingly clear that the majority of such cases arise from coercive abuse. It seems to me that, logically, inferences drawn from those cases alone must be skewed; to reach any sort of balanced conclusion we need to know the feelings of those who were the subject of non-coercive abuse.
In my younger days, when I was active on the gay scene, non-coercive abuse was widespread. I was non-coercively abused myself when I was (I think) 14; I have to confess that I actively sought to be 'abused' by a couple of adults because I saw this as a means of breaking into the wider gay community. So far as I am concerned, it worked. Neither adult encouraged me to do anything I didn't want to do. One of them took some pics of me, but when I decided I didn't want to do that again I wasn't pressured to do so. Happily, there was no web in those days, but I do know that at least one black-and-white pic of a naked teenage Cossie is out there now! And when I decided that I didn't want any more cross-generational sex, that was respected too. I am still in occasional contact with half-a-dozen others who were involved in the same group, and none of us feels damaged by our experiences.
Now the experiences of myself and half-a-dozen friends don't collectively amount to scientific evidence, but I hope they serve to underline the need to seek out such evidence before jumping to conclusions.
One thing that concerns me is that if my experiences had happened in the recent past, and had come to light by some kind of accident, the adults concerned would have been pilloried and punished just as much as the predators who had coercive sex with children in their care in children's homes - yet so far as I can see the damage they caused to their 'victims' was almost negligible. It's almost like ranking a shoplifter with an armed robber.
My second - and possibly even greater - concern is the way that our supposedly well-meaning institutions react when a case of abuse comes to light. I do sincerely believe that some kids are damaged much more deeply by the insinuation that they have done something terribly wrong than by the abuse they suffered. Of course I accept that there are many instances where this is not the case. I accept also that in most cases of coercive abuse, the child is already aware that the sexual activity was wrong, and did not wish to indulge in it. But when it comes to non-coercive abuse I think that the agencies involved should be much more sensitive to the needs of the child. I'd advocate some formal changes in the court procedure, to try to ensure that the victims really do remain anonymous. If that results in some restriction upon press freedom, then so be it; headlines such as 'LOCAL SCOUT LEADER CONVICTED OF SEX ATTACKS ON SIX TEENAGE BOYS' serve only to tittilate and to increase sales. The Scout Leader is named; it is then easy to identify the Scout Troop involved, and only a short step further to identify the victims - and then, for them, the real hell begins.
One final thought: do we have the right to pontificate upon the activities of Eastern Europeans? Do we understand how they feel? Have we any right to assume that our morals should be their morals? Not much over a century ago, the crusading British journalist W. T. Stead - then editing my local paper, the Newcastle Chronicle - bought a young girl, simply to show how easily this could be done. But was he applauded for exposing the depravity which was commonplace at the time? No, he was not. He was prosecuted in the Courts. Our own moral history is far from glorious; if we set ourselves upon a pedestal, we deceive ourselves.
In summary, I argue for -
(a) a better understanding of the human condition - something gays have sought for years;
(b) the absolute precedence of the interests of the child over zeal to punish the abuser, and
(c) a sense of proportion in considering the actual harm perpetrated by the abuser.
I don't usually stick my neck out this far and, having done so, I really would like to know how the rest of you react to what I have said.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It may well not be current. The Sexual Offences Act (of recent date) changed many things, but it was certainly the law until very recently.
It is only recently that UK citizens have been allowed to see erect penises in pictures and films. Apparently we were alowed stiff upper lips, but that is as far south as it went.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I think I admire people who are able to shed sufficient inhibitions to perform to order. I certainly enjoy looking at a number of them . But society deprecates their work because society does not approve.
I find myself wishing I had participated sometimes, though also wonder if I was intellectually strong enough while I had a suitable body to have coped well with the style of fame it might have brought. In any event I was too shy and was never near an opportunity to discover it one way or the other.
In general it appears that these things catch up with people in their working lives. I would have forever been looking over my shoulder in my first job as a civil servant in a medium security installation because I would have been afraid of exposure and being fired. Naturally my mind would never have conceived of being paid enough as a jobbing porn star to mean I had no need of that role.
I see the actors as skilled craftsmen and women. They have to have sex when the director wishes it. In pre-viagra days that must sometimes have been less than possible. In the viagra and cialis generation I know that those drugs have horrid side effects, so wonder what harm the actors are doing to themselves.
It must also be hard to hold the camera when your underwear is bursting!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I have alwasy felt the same.
The child in a non coercive realtionship that is discovered and prosectued feels an enormous guilt that the adult they loved (let us not debate whether that was real love, I am looking at perception, which is what love is) has been prosecuted for an act that each enjoyed, and for a relationship that sustained each.
We could, I suppose, debate whether the relationship was coerced or not, but I think we can say that, if it had been you, it would have been a mutually satisfying relationship, and we can extrapolate that to other kids, but not to all kids.
There is the probably rumour based case of the kid whose pictures circulate still under the name "Jesse Dumanch". It is said that this kid was in a consensual relationship with an adult while legally a minor, and it is said that both are US citizens. (I checked Snopes, but no trace under this name, at least). The story says that these pictures escaped into the hands of "Jesse's" school colleagues and were plastered around his school, which both outed him and, to his distress, his lover, who was prosecuted.
The fact that a crime was committed and a jail sentence imposed is the law, and thus not to be argued with. But "Jesse" was reputed afterwards to be devastated that what was to him an innocent relationship (yes, with pictures), had meant that his older lover had been prosecuted.
Whether this is real or not (or whether it was invented to make the pictures more interesting) is not relevant. What is relevant is the thought process, which is echoed in real life by kids who were in non coercive relationships.
Note, please, that society and the law say that such relationships are wrong, and we choose to be governed by the law. Thus I am not at all defending and certainly not advocating such a relationship. It just strikes me that such things should be dealt with out of the public eye, away from prurient interest, and with due regard to the damage that is likely to be done to the younger individual by whatever course of action is decided upon.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Most of the cameras were mounted on stands with wheels.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Oops, that was perhaps a bit too terse. A camera mounted on a tripod with wheels, or a hydraulic platform with wheels and a camera head, is called a dolly.
I have to say that the description Marc gives is far more professional (but also much more unfamiliar) than I would have been aware of; I was under the impression that most porn these days was made by a couple of people with one or two video cameras. It may have changed in the last couple of decades, of course.
David
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All very good points (as usual), cossie.
I would especially agree with the need to supress the identity of men accused of child molestation until they have been tried and found guilty.
I can also agree with your view that intergenerational sex does not always damage the younger party - a schoolmate of mine has been having sex (including "tearoom sex") with guys of all ages since he was 14, and it doesn't seem to be a problem for him in any way.
But I'm not at all sure how the courts or judicial system could take the damage into account. In my own case, if I'd been asked at 20, or 30, or 40, I would have said that I had emerged essentially unscathed from a relationship in my early teens that I now realise was in fact abusive and has had a profound effect on me throughout my life. "Victim Impact" statements or assessments are not going to be a reliable way forward.
So, I see the part of the older person as rather like driving while drunk. A lot of the time nothing damaging to others may happen, but it is an action which greatly increases the chances of severely damaging another person.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Cossie said,
>In summary, I argue for -
>(a) a better understanding of the human condition - something gays have sought for years;
>(b) the absolute precedence of the interests of the child over zeal to punish the abuser, and
>(c) a sense of proportion in considering the actual harm perpetrated by the abuser.
>I don't usually stick my neck out this far and, having done so, I really would like to know how the rest of you react to what I have said.
Well, I cannot really comment other than to agree in general principle given your own particular set of circumstances; I do not have the experience necessary to be able to pronounce with any personal authority on this subject. It is absurd to assume that no-one will ever want to have sex until he is sixteen (certainly not eighteen in the US), yet on the whole the media circus seems to assume that this is fact and that an older partner must always have initiated it. This seems to extend to the idea that no-one under the age of 16 could ever feel other than abused: if they are not feeling abused, make them!
The tabloid media, however, is not the cornerstone of the British legal system (well, it is not supposed to be, anyway). I assume that the CPS and social services have some discretion in these matters? I know very few gay people and no gay people under the age of consent (16), so I have very little evidence to support my assumption. But in the Russell T. Davies's "Queer as Folk" (the British original), most people within the story turned a blind eye on the fact that Nathan was under the age of consent. On broadcast, this caused a bit of consternation in "middle England" (ugh) but I do not remember anyone clearly stating either that no 15 year-old could consent as depicted in the programme, nor that the character Stuart was evidently a child abuser and belonged in prison. Is this true to life?
David
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Whilst respect for the law is paramount, if a law is wrong, or does not do as it should, people shoul speak of this in loud voices. Its the onl way to get the law changed.
I hold a terribly low opinion of almost all of the UKs current Sexual Offences crimes...
from the point of view of a law student, many of the offences are crimes of "Strict Liability" you are guilty if you do the act. end of story. It matters not about the mental element, whether you intended, or were reckless, or even had knowledge! A famous case from the 80s being a person who ran off with a girl who even the court admitted looked 18, told him she was 18, but was in fact 16 (the offence being removing a minor from lawful guardianship without permission).
Those kind of crimes are ok for things like speeding offences, where you only get a fine, but not crimes where your liberty is at stake.
the case of Michael Kelly is a perfect example of why NOT to reveal identities of offenders. The police, as part of Operation Ore investigated him for possession of Child Porn, and he was arrested for it. His name got plastered all over the Media (he was a UK TV Presenter) he lost his job and everything.
i don't think he was even charged with an offence, and certainly never went to court, and was nver convicted of anything. the police found no evidence of any wrongdoing on his part. totally absolutely innocent.
career ruined. sort of. he's now working on a west end show. says he prefers theatre...
as for me, Timmy, and some other members may recall a few years ago my own relationship with Tim, who was 14 at the time and i was 18.... Though me and Tim are no longer in a relationship (currently) he still counts me as one of his closest friends.
From what i have seen, and read about relationships of this kind, as cossie pointed out, the damage tends to come from the public (and legal) prosecution of the relationship as an evil act... From my own perspective, Tim's dad used to tell him i was only using tim to have kiddie sex, and trying to exploit him and abuse him... it always made Tim upset, because he got scared he was going to end up hurting me somehow by being with me.
Until very recently, inter-generational relationships would not have been illegal, unless there was some kind of sexual element involved, a 14yr old is quite entitled to date a 40yr old, and the 40yr old is doing nothing wrong by spending time with the boy...
i imagine today such a relationship would probably come under the offence "grooming"... i'm sure a decent prosecutor could make the case out...
my biggest grievence with the child sex laws is that
two school children, in yr 11, 1 aged 16, the other 15, have fully consensual sex as part of a long term relationship.
the older one has sexually assaulted a child under 16, and since they themselves are under 18, are liable for 14 years in prison on indictment.
that the act is unlawful, one cannot disagree... but that the law makes no distinction between the consensual teenage lovers, and the abusive old man, is just wrong.
Odi et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
Nescio, set fieri sentio et excrucior
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Deej, we both posted together lol... some of your questions are answered by my post above yours, but in summary...
to take the Stuart example (though i've never seen QaF) he is liable under s.9 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 unless he can prove beyond reasonable doubt that he thought Nathan was aged 16 or over.
If Stuart cannot prove that, the Charge is Indictable Sexual Conduct with a child under 16, the punishment, max 14 years.
if the Child is under 13, then the fact that you may have thought him over 16 is irrelevant. though, i guess, few `13yr olds do look that old, there may be 1 or 2...
That nathan consents is irrelevant. That you may have met nathan in a nightclub where you could reasonably expect everyone to be aged 18, let alone 15, is also irrelevant.
the onus is on you to check. Effectively, when having sex with a stranger, make sure you see ID before you have sex with them, and take a dictophone to record them giving positive consent. Failure to do so can lead to rape or child sexual contact charges.
In law, that the child initiated all conduct, was in a place where they shouldn't be (i.e. in a nightclub) gave full positive consent, even seduced you with a deliberate aim of having sex with you....
is all irrelevant.
thats the legal position
having said that, the CPS have 2 filters when pressing charges
1/ is there enough evidence
2/ is it in the public interest.
my own judgement would be, if its consensual, the boy was breaking the law too, and the age difference isn't great, its not in the public interest to prosecute.
the man may still get a police caution though, and these days a police caution for a sexual offence is equally as damning as an actual conviction, despite you never having been to court...
Odi et amo: quare id faciam, fortasse requiris.
Nescio, set fieri sentio et excrucior
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That case was all in the news here. Jesse is (was) from Kentucky. They named and attempted to prosecute the adult, but then a problem occured. First Jesse refused to co operate with authorities in any shape for or fashion. Then they found out that with out Jesse's testimoney they could not link the pics to the adult. The charges were dropped and the man let go. By theis time Jesse was nearly 18 and if I understand right left with the man and dissappeared.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Is there any legal discretion in these cases, where a case is evidently not worth bringing to trial? See my post "A question".
I remember reading an article in which it said that Matthew Kelly received a standing ovation on his first return to work after charges were dropped. So the public seems to have forgiven him.
I think this is the one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/reviews/2798527.stm
That said, it is impossible to quantify how it has harmed his career. Incidentally, despite his marriage, he is rather enigmatic about his sexuality.
His case is a little like that of Arthur C. Clarke -- there are some people to whom, if I mention his name, they don't say, "Ah -- one of the greatest science fiction writers of the twentieth century," but instead say, "Wasn't he found guilty of having underage sex?" The answer is no, allegations were made but they were found to be entirely unfounded. This was evidently not reported by the tabloid press even a tenth as loudly as his possible guilt.
David
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Hmm. I'm aware that the situation in Queer as Folk is technically illegal. However, I was assuming that there was a certain amount of discretion in a case like that that would mean (a) that it would be unlikely to be reported, and (b) that it would likely never go to trial. Is that actually not the case?
Fundamentally, is it a situation that does happen (with some frequency) in real life?
This is interesting to me, as I am writing my dissertation on how homosexual relationships are depicted on British television, specifically referencing Queer as Folk. If it's not a realistic representation, then it would be valuable to know that.
David
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Before too much hot air is generated over this, it is important to remember that 'Queer as Folk' is a work of fiction.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Nigel,
I'm not sure if the "hot air" comment is aimed at me or not, but I know very well QaF is a work of fiction. However, it would be beneficial to me to know to what extent it mirrors reality. This is something that can't easily be picked up from academic writing (after all, it's technically illegal) so anecdotal evidence might be a good place to start.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It sounds awful for him, but a potentially happy ending. That's the damage I mean. Trying to force the uncoerced "victim" to testify.
I hope he's happy.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I have some experience of the people who frequent Canal Street, though not much. From those whom I know I can tell you that the scenario is not unusual.
I also know reasonably well a young man who used to rent in the area while he was under the age of consent.
The issue is whether the circumstances would come to light. The only circumstances where they would are if someone else reports them, or there is some sort of raid.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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The matter can be dropped if it is "not in the public interest to proceed"
In the current climate of finding paedophiles behind every lamp post it is likely to be in the public interest
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Okay, that stands to reason.
I'm the first to admit I have no experience of Canal Street or Soho (beyond what NW has kindly shown me).
Assuming that a relationship was taking place between two people that was clearly not coercive (let's say between a mature and responsible 15 year-old and an 18 year-old), would the police be obliged to investigate if they heard about it? As far as I understand, the police would be very unlikely to become involved in a relationship between (say) a 15 year-old and a 14 year-old, despite that being technically illegal as well; it would not be in the public interest.
I suppose it rather depends on whether those members of the police involved with dealing with these sorts of things are sensible and not swayed by the tabloid mentality. "Paedophilia" becomes blurred once you start dealing with teenagers who can make their own choices.
Queer as Folk did not strike me as particularly shocking, but then again Nathan was played by an 18 year-old.
David
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>The matter can be dropped if it is "not in the public interest to proceed"
>In the current climate of finding paedophiles behind every lamp post it is likely to be in the public interest
The definition of "public interest", of course, being: the public would be exceedingly interested to hear all the juicy details in the paper. As in-depth and intrusive as possible, please. No matter if no-one was actually abused: the "Big Brother" generation thinks it has a right to know everything that goes on behind closed doors.
David
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I had an online friend who was 14 at the time, he claimed to go cruising in Sydney and had oral sex with a number of men.
I've been in a relationship with my current boyfriend since he's been a minor and I am currently living under his parents' roof. Charges were never pressed, likely because the police never found out about it. It was a little hectic when they first found out (he was still a minor at the time) but in Australia, as far as I'm aware (and I had contact with Legal Aid) a relationship alone is not illegal.
I think in Australia, most cases of "illegal" relationships are left ignored by legal authorities. My aunt was in a (presumably) sexual relationship at age 12-13 with a 17-18 year old and while it was somewhat coercive, my aunt, then didn't want to do anything about it and now (at 27) is glad she didn't.
There were a lot of stories of "illegal" heterosexual relationships when I was in High School, different girls with 20-odd year old boyfriends. None of them seemed to get in legal trouble. I guess it's more permissable between straight couples. But generally, provided it's a relationship, rather than just sex I figure most parents might try and tell their kids they aren't allow to date such-and-such a person, but it would be rare for it to come to trial.
Amongst gay couples I figure that the whole "coming out" process would make it more straining on parents and there might be a few more rash decisions. Parents willing to kick their children out of home for being gay would have no problem shifting the blame away from their own kids onto an 18 year old "predator". But again, parents might be more likely to use the cops as a threat, rather than actually doing it. Even now, Ryan's mum threatens him with going to the police, despite the fact that legally she has no grounds- he is over the age of consent and we were only in a platonic relationship prior to him hitting the age of consent.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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In Victoria a 10 year old can consent to sex with a 12 year old, but a 13 year old can't consent to sex with a 16 year old. Nor can a 15 year old consent to sex with a 18 year old. For ages 10-16 it's a "2 year age gap", hard and fast.
Definitely better than a flat age of consent, but arguably still quite a way from ideal.
I'm still of the opinion that age of consent is counter-productive. Coersive, abusive sex should be equally prosecuted regardless of the victim's age. It should be easy to prove that a prepubescent has been abused and the true predators could be prosecuted just as they are now, but under a law that applies to adult victims, too! Under current laws I wouldn't be suprised if a 5 year old could curiously grab a relative's penis in the swimming pool change rooms and have their poor old uncle up for statuatory rape!
As for the Justin Berry case, at worst his customers should really be penalised by a combination of child-labour, possession of child-pornography and maybe prostitution charges! What they did shouldn't be considered statuatory rape by any means. Even if he was coerced, he had control over the situation. I don't seem him as a victim any more than a 20 year old, "no sex before marriage" girl that is talked into giving her virginity to her boyfriend is a victim. Coersion is bad, but should it be illegal?
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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David, the definitive answer is no; it was not aimed at you.
The way the thread was going I could see a lot of hot air arising from the morality and legality in particular of Nathan's relationship in QaF, which to me is futile because it is fiction. It did not happen. Charlie Hunnam was an actor.
A parallel was the group which demonstrated outside Gloucester cathedral against its use as a location in 'Harry Potter', because magic is evil and the work of the devil. Again the story was fiction. Magic does not exist. So how can it be the work of the devil?
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It would be a matter of manpower. As TBP has said, this is a "Strict Liability Offence" (real life, not the TV show), and thus it "must be investigated". It woudl be investigated briefly and the outcome woudl depend upon the stories given to them, the probability of obtaining a conviction, and the manpower available at the time.
If the story had escaped into the press that would colour the manpower availability.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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No, the definition of "in the Public Interest" is different. It genuinely means that the prosecution must be to the total benefit of the public, using the word "interest" in a very different fashion.
Public interest includes whether it would seriously harm the younger party to prosecute, provided the younger party had not been harmed by the experiences.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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