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... Wales is knobbly. And it has rather frightening foreign signposts everywhere, presumably designed to intimidate English people who inadvertently go too far up the M4.
I drove 421 miles today to South Wales and back to collect something in the belief that it would save on postage. I suppose it did, if you take into account that I would also have had to pay for the thing I dropped off to go the other way. £38 on fuel in total. About 9 pence a mile.
It didn't save on stress, especially when I forgot something and had to backtrack 40 miles to get it.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Where did you go, Davy bach? or should that be Dewi?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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By the way, you were very lucky to find Wales open. Most times I've been there it was closed, especially for beer.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I went to a place called Hirwaun. That's somewhere near Merthyr Tydfil, in case you were wondering. There's a chap there who services and modifies movie cameras. He is one of only two or three people in the world with expertise in his particular area of the field, so I'm rather lucky I don't live in New Zealand -- otherwise I would have had to fly to Wales, and it would have cost a lot more than £38.
I got lost on the way but was too frightened to try and pronounce any of the place names in case everyone laughed at me. Instead I would write a name down and ask someone, "Do you know the way to here?" Every single time that person would say that he or she had never heard of it -- perhaps he did not want to admit that he did not know how to pronounce it either...
I had never been to Wales before. I had a physical feeling of relief once I crossed the Severn (incidentally, £4.90 to go over a bridge in a small car? Highway robbery!) back into England. I am convinced that the main purpose of Welsh-language signs (even though they do have English equivalents) is to let the Welsh feel smug and make the non-Welsh feel awkward. It's very divisive: until today, I thought of Wales as being the same country. Now I'm a bit intimidated about going back there.
It also rained most of the time. It stopped once I got back onto English soil.
David
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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It sucks driving to Wales. The last time I tried it I left Worthing on the South coast at about 7pm. Had a room booked at LLandrindod Wells. Looked on the map and by Aussie rules it looked like a piece of cake.
Unfortunately got lost in Bristol around midnight and couldn't find our way out. Kept stopping and asking the locals directions but eventually realised no one must have ever been out of Bristol before.
To cut a long story short arrived at Llandrindod Wells at about 5.30am
All that after a 26 hour flight from Oz. Never again.
Does knobbly refer to their knees or what?
Aussie
[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 22:12] |
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Well yor experince was at least as good as mine. Its definitely not a place for the light hearted to venture into. Must be one of the last wildernes areas still untouched.
One of the guys we tried to ask directions from appeared to be deaf and blind.
Eventually from the motorway we could see the Severn bridge (it appeared to be up in the sky) but it still took a long time to figure out how to get on to it.
Aussie
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I was guessing about 4am in Llandrindod Wells
Ah, Bristol. City of docks and a probation officer I spent too long obsessed with
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I've been to Hirwaun. Used to go surfing on the beach at Aberavon (near Port Talbot). One of our party had a granny in Hirwaun.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Actually, I love Wales !
I celebrated New Year several times in a small village with a ruined Norman border castle (Grosmont, just outside Abergavenny) with a youth club that I was in. Back in my schooldays, I was still a drinker, and the pub stayed open til ... everyone was incapable of drinking any more. All quite safe - the whereabouts of the only policeman for miles around was known ( ie he was in the Saloon Bar: we were in the Public Bar!).
But I take timmy's point about much of Wales being "dry" (ie, local option to have no alcohol sales on Sundays, etc). One canal holiday as a student in 1974 on the Llangollen was memorable for having to check the map to ensure that we moored the right side of county boundaries for a drink ...
Hmmm, having been a non-drinker since the late 70s, maybe I'm missing something ....
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Aussie said,
>Does knobbly refer to their knees or what?
The hills!
It's very flat round London and the home counties -- in fact, it's pretty flat right down to Bristol. But once you're over the bridge it's like being in the Alps. I thought it was, anyway. I think that was the main reason it felt like another country.
The M4 is very useful for getting to Wales. You get on around the M25 and just go on and on and on and on and on and on. Not as interesting as the A303, though.
David
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I think the only definitive thing I can say is that it felt very different from how I expected it to feel -- I expected it to feel like the West Country of England, because it's only a few miles away as the crow flies. But it didn't.
I think it would have felt different and exciting and novel if I had approached it in a "holiday mood" (like I have when I've gone to Scotland or Ireland). I was not in a holiday mood today so it struck me as incongruous and slightly alien. I ought to go back when I'm not so obsessed with getting to one particular place for one particular time and then turning around and coming back straight away. There's only a certain amount that one can rave about motorways and dual carriageways and rain and wrong turnings and not being able to ask for directions because one does not know how to pronounce the names!
David
[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 22:53] |
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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You're right the memories all come flooding back. Once over the bridge, the winding roads, the driving rain and being scared of falling asleep at the wheel. A nightmare. And it looked so simple on the map.
Aussie
Oh and I forgot to mention we had all our luggage and a 2 yr old kid in a Mini
[Updated on: Mon, 16 October 2006 23:00] |
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... if you follow the M4 to the end, and carry on towards Fishguard, you'll find yourself in 'Little England', the former Pembrokeshire, where the population are largely descended from settlers (mostly Flemish) imported by the English Crown to secure their power base around Pembroke. They DO have a Welsh accent, but (by a huge majority) they don't converse in Welsh, nor to they have any ambition to do so.
The scenery is similar to (and every bit as good as) that found in Cornwall. Pembroke has its rias ('drowned valleys'); Milford Haven is geologically similer to the inlets at Fowey or Falmouth, and although it has an oil refinery, it also has miles of unspoilt coastline. The cliff walks of the Pembrokeshire Coastal Path rival anything to be found in Cornwall.
The only thing wrong with Wales is the Welsh (and remember I'm speaking as a Scot!) They simply can't get used to the idea that they were conquered by the English over 700 years ago - even though the relics of that conquest - castles at Conwy, Caernarfon, Harlech, Beaumaris, Fflint, Rhuddlan and elsewhere - underpin the Welsh tourist industry.
I really do resent the way in which the Welsh try to use the Welsh language as a nationalistic tool rather than an academic treasure - to the extent that some places in Pembrokeshire have been given Welsh names which have no historical validity. The Scots, Irish, Manx and Cornish are no less proud of their history, but they recognise that it IS history - so their ancient languages are taught and learned not because of any nationalistic jingoism, but as a means to access and understand the richness of that history.
Incidentally, the most confusing thing abour Welsh is that a single 'f' is pronounced as a 'v'; the English 'f' sound is represented by a double 'ff'. There are other peculiarities; 'll' sounds like 'chl', but the 'ch' is pronounced in the throat, like the Scottish 'loch', and 'dd' sounds very similar to the English 'th'. And, of course, there's more! But, by and large, English pronunciation of Welsh is perfectly understandable to Welsh speakers, and there are NO Welsh speakers who do not also speak English. Those who pretend that they do not understand are simply demonstrating the all-too-common Welsh traits of arrogance and ignorance.
A useful tip, if there is an English equivalent on a roadsign and it looks vaguely similar to the Welsh name, is to pronounce the English equivalent by the normal rules of English - so 'Caernarvon' comes out correctly as the Welsh pronunciation 'Caernarfon', and similarly with 'Conway' and 'Flint'.
DIGRESSION WARNING - I am now going to ramble even further from the point!
An example of the above is provided by the hills in the northern part of Pembrokeshire - in English, the Prescelly Hills, but in Welsh 'Prescelly' becomes 'Preseli', from which is derived the surname 'Presley'. And on the South Pembrokeshire coast, a few miles East of St. David's, lies the church and parish of St. Elvis. So what's the betting on Elvis Presley's Welsh ancestry?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Wish I coulda gone with you. See the sights, feel the countryside  .
Love the new pic Mwahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Deeej wrote:
... Wales is knobbly. And it has rather frightening foreign signposts everywhere, presumably designed to intimidate English people who inadvertently go too far up the M4.
At the risk of hijacking David's thread let me point out that in Israel road signs are presented in three alphabets - alphabets, not languages. At the top the Hebrew is given, below it is the Arabic and below that ... well, it's not English: it's the Hebrew transliterated into Latin characters. Now that's fine when the place only has a Hebrew (or Arabic) name; but what is the tourist supposed to make of a transliteration of "Ben-Gurion Airport"??? The ministry of transport says that it's the law that all place names must be transliterated. Well, that doesn't stop them signposting the capital as "Jerusalem" (and not 'Yerushalayim' or 'Al Kuds'). If that is the law then, as Charles Dickens made Mr Bumble say, "the law is an ass".
[Updated on: Tue, 17 October 2006 07:33]
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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For Hirwaun (I have actually stopped there) you should have taken the A40, then the Heads of the Valleys road and you wouldn't have had to pay the £4.90 admission fee to Wales. Then you take the M4 on the way back and get out of Wales free.
As I live less than a mile from the A40 (somewhere in England), but don't tell cossie, you could have popped in for a cup of tea.
Hugs
N
[Updated on: Wed, 18 October 2006 07:25]
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Apart from the big cities, going to Wales is like stepping back 20 or 30 years.
If you had trouble in South Wales, how are you going to cope in North Wales?
Hugs
N
PS - Remember the old saying. If you can see across a Welsh valley, it's going to rain. If you can't, it's already raining.
[Updated on: Tue, 17 October 2006 14:39]
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Cossie, I am going to take you to task over the Welsh 'll'. It is not pronounced in the throat. Whereas the single 'l' is pronounced with the tip of the tongue either on the top front teeth or the front of the palate, the double 'l' is pronounced with the sides of the tongue against the back teeth.
Try it some time when you're sitting in a traffic jam.
At least the Welsh consonants are consistent, which is more than can be said about their vowels.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Someone pointed that out to me while I was in Hirwaun. At first I could see across the valley. By the time I left it was pouring with rain, and I couldn't.
I suspect going to North Wales will have to wait until I do a proper tour round the British Isles. I might do that one day if I can find someone to go with.
David
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Brian, once you make it to the UK I'd be delighted to take you. Given enough time, there's nowhere on the British mainland it wouldn't be possible to drive or take the train to.
Mwahhhhhhh to you as well.
David
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jack
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Likes it here |
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304
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they do say the welsh walk around in welly boots, i think this could be sheep related ?:-/
life is to enjoy.
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Now I also know that while strawberry or raspberry jam goes nicely with rice pudding, marmalade (which is delicious on toast) most certainly does not. Yuck.
I'm learning something new every day.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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OOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
That sounds yummy!!!!
I never tried jams on rice pudding.....
I got to try that.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Jams are good with rice pudding. In fact, I don't think I can eat rice pudding without them.
Marmalade, on the other hand, is best avoided. They don't seem to mix.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I don't like marmalade.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Make the rice pudding a bit sweeter than usual, with full-cream milk. Add marmalade. Top with proper clotted cream (decent stuff with a bit of a bite to it!). Yummy.
Sadly, also excessively cholesterol-rich, so strictly reserved for high days and holidays ...
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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I think I have heard that too. Maybe where the Kiwis come from. Will have to make further enquiries with Jedediah when he gets in from the top paddock.
Aussie 
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... it's just that we Scots have muscular tongues designed for pronouncing words like 'Auchenshuggle', 'Invermuchty' and 'A wee deoch an' doris'. These muscles have many other uses, but to expect us to pronounce namby-pamby Welsh consonants (consistent or otherwise) is simply asking too much!
Besides, if I try to put the sides of my tongue alongside my back teeth, I always end up biting it!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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.. in a way, it's the inverse of the British (but not exclusively British!*) tendency to re-name foreign cities to suit ourselves. Since, to the Italians, the capital of Italy is 'Roma', why do we insist upon calling it 'Rome'? I had an acquaintance who got lost in Bavaria because nobody told him that the English 'Munich' was known to the Germans as 'Muenchen'. (The 'ue' would be represented in German as a 'u' with two dots above it, but I don't know how to do this in a post!) There are lots of other examples. Sometimes transliteration is unrealistic - as with 'Jerusalem', which for obvious historic reasons is deeply embedded in the English language - but on the whole it's difficult to see why we persist with the practice.
*For example, the French call London 'Londres' - but that may simply be the result of eating too much garlic.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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