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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Do you remember the decisions that were to be made this year by the Rabbinical Assembly, the governing body, so to speak, for Connservative Judaism, which we looked at in http://tinyurl.com/y2zacl back in March 2006
The outcome was to be deferred until December 2006
I've been asked "Why is this important - I am not a Jew?" and "Why is this important, this is surely an Israel issue?"
It is important because this is a major branch (division? - someone will correct me) of a major world religion that is considering global ordination of homosexual clergy and global blessing of same gender unions.
It is not an Israel issue becauise judaism is a global religion. This decision affects the USA, for example, in a huge way.
Now we approach December. My sources say that indications are positive that the decision will go in favour of ordination and blessing. Of course this is still early days.
There is much work now. My main source watches this board quietly and has asked me for your advice.
There are many congregations, globally, containing everything from fiercely "conservative" (small "c") to radically liberal (small "l") congregants of all genders and orientations.
It is not just the rabbi who teaches the congregation, but others teach and prepare, too, on, if you like, a "lay basis" (this is not my world, so I will get some terminology wrong).
The question is "How do the rabbi and other members of the congregation prepare the very mixed congregation to receive the news, shoudl the decsion be favourable?"
In fact, I am assuming that it woudl be wise to pre-prepare the congregation for the news.
I think this includes those congregants who are not regular attendees at the synagogues
[Updated on: Mon, 23 October 2006 11:37]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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[I'm sorry if I sound cynical or off-topic below. On an immediate and practical level I agree with you, Timmy, that the result is very important, though I don't know much about Judaism and can't answer the question you pose at the end of your post (or was it a rhetorical question?). I am of course an atheist.]
[Edit: yes, I think I do sound a bit off-topic and cynical. But I'll leave the post because I still think the point is relevant. In an ideal world, what any particular religion has to say should not impact people who are not strictly part of that religion in any way whatsoever.]
Timmy said,
>I've been asked "Why is this important - I am not a Jew?" and "Why is this important, this is surely an Israel issue?"
>It is important because this is a major branch (division? - someone will correct me) of a major world religion that is considering global ordination of homosexual clergy and global blessing of same gender unions.
>It is not an Israel issue becauise judaism is a global religion. This decision affects the USA, for example, in a huge way.
I have to say -- and I mean no disrespect for Judaism or any other specific religion, only religion generally -- that the sooner that what such religions say on the subject of sexuality becomes irrelevant, the better the world will become. Sexuality doesn't have anything do with spirituality. It is a personal thing and should not need to be judged "right" or "wrong" by any religion, because it is not their business to be making that judgement. Their belief that it is their right to do so stems back hundreds or thousands of years to a time when religion was closely tied up with politics and the prejudices of a particular society. Nowadays, thankfully, in most civilised societies, it is not (though unfortunately there are always religious people who are trying to get them back together again).
If it is left for every religion to say, "Hmm -- is this wrong or is it right?", and they are given great publicity so doing, it gives the impression that what they think on the subject is actually important. To a person who is not Jewish -- perhaps even a gay person who is Jewish -- this decision should mean nothing.
David
[Updated on: Mon, 23 October 2006 12:30] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Deeej wrote:
> If it is left for every religion to say, "Hmm -- is this wrong or is it right?", and they are given great publicity so doing, it gives the impression that what they think on the subject is actually important. To a person who is not Jewish -- perhaps even a gay person who is Jewish -- this decision should mean nothing.
The thing is, while I agree that it perhaps should mean nothing, it does mean something. Judaism is a widespread religion, and a decision in judaism has significance globally and the ripples run far outside Judaism.
I don't want to get too far from the main topic, of course, but I see this as a valid issue, the more so since it is a religion that may be about to declare that its clergy can do things that (eg) RC clergy may not.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Deeej wrote:
> ... the sooner that what such religions say on the subject of sexuality becomes irrelevant, the better the world will become. Sexuality doesn't have anything do with spirituality. It is a personal thing and should not need to be judged "right" or "wrong" by any religion, because it is not their business to be making that judgement.
I'd love to agree with you on this, Deeej. But I can't agree that sexuality has nothing to do with spirituality - for some people (I'm one) they are closely linked. Unfortunately, it's an area that's almost impossible to talk about without sounding either pretentious or trivial: perhaps I could just say that sexuality, spirituality, and indeed friendship, often involve experiences of not wanting to put ones own interests first.
This doesn't mean that sexual *orientation* is connected with spirituality - I don't think it is. And it definitely doesn't mean that I think organised religion necessarily has much to do with spirituality - in fact, I think it often kills any desire in people to see any spiritual dimension in their experiences and feelings.
And this leads back to the original topic ... In an ideal world, I'd suggest starting with discussions with congregants about any of their friends and family who chose not to attend regularly, or who had given up religous practices or joined a more liberal tradition. Not exclusively focussed on homosexuality, but on the need to keep the religious tradition alive and re-interpreted ... and possibly also to explore any gap between what people say in the synagogue and what they actually do: if it's anything like the dear old C of E, everyone professes the strictest standards whenever there's a priest around, but actual day-to-day life is a lot more liberal.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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NW said,
>I can't agree that sexuality has nothing to do with spirituality - for some people (I'm one) they are closely linked. Unfortunately, it's an area that's almost impossible to talk about without sounding either pretentious or trivial: perhaps I could just say that sexuality, spirituality, and indeed friendship, often involve experiences of not wanting to put ones own interests first.
I'll have to take your word on this, NW -- I mean, take your word that it is like that for you. I have to say that I have never felt 'spiritual' in my life. I see everything, my life and my sexuality included, as the result of a distinct causal and scientific chain of events stemming back to time immemorial. I find it very difficult to reconcile the fuzzy way of thinking of 'spirituality' (I will confess I am not really sure what it is, so that does somewhat hamper my thinking on the issue!) with science. I have no objection to others who can, but I cannot myself and, as I've indicated, for that reason I resent the conversion of the spirituality of other people through their religions into the precision of moral absolutes and from then on into the daily lives of myself and other people.
That's just a statement of my position. I know I'm drifting further and further off-topic so I'll leave it there. I have no doubt that spirituality is important for some people, but it's really too vague a concept for me to be able to make much sense of.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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"How do the rabbi and other members of the congregation prepare the very mixed congregation to receive the news, shoudl the decsion be favourable?"
This is of course a loaded question.......
Favorability being dependant on the position the reciever of this has on the issue.
I would guess that the only answer would be that depending on your position either brace yourself for the earth shattering "ohi" that would follow...
Or....
Recoil in abject horror at the decision of your religous leaders and utter the immortal word......... "ohi"
Either way.... What happens.... happens....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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How do they prepare in case the decision is favorable? Fist talk to the congregation about how many there have brothers or sisters or nephews or nieces or friends or fathers who are gay. Find out how many of those people chose not to attend church because they are gay. How many hide from relatives or friends because they are gay. How many become hipocrits becasue they are gay. How many snaeak around in dark places risking everything because of who they are. When a gay person can feel comfortable in church, and not feel discriminated against, or felt he or she is being put down, then they can go about being human and becomeing a part of the congregation and worship thier god openly and without fear.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Though the December decision may be favourable, there is obviously a considerable body of opposition. It's likely that the full spectrum of viewpoints will be reflected by individual rabbis and lay helpers; left to their own devices, individual congregations will inevitably react in different ways.
It may arguably be helpful for the issues to be raised and discussed by each congregation before a decision is made but, dependent upon the personal views of the rabbi and his helpers, the outcome might lead to alienation of part of the congregation (not necessarily the gay element) rather than the extended inclusion for which the proposal aims.
In short, I think that failure by the Rabbinical Assembly to give firm and specific guidance about implementation of such a major decision would make about as much sense as McDonalds failing to specify the menu provided by its franchise holders. Both circumstances would have the same potential result - chaos and confusion for the 'customer', and significant damage to the institution. Sometimes, the lead really must come from the top.
There are two points upon which I must disagree with Deeej.
Firstly, I don't think that it is either helpful, or for that matter scientific, to dismiss the significance of this move for gays everywhere. OK, we all believe that we ought to be universally accepted but we know that we are not. We need to move towards the ideal, and to do that we need to change public opinion. If we approach this objective in a scientific way - 'scientific' in the sense that the approach is based upon detailed study of previous attempts to change public opinion - it must surely be clear that hailing and emphasising a significant step will be more effective than complaining that the ideal has not been achieved. Humanity is endlessly fallible. There are those for which religion fulfills a deep psychological need - in fact, all religions probably spring from this need. If we seek to abolish religion, we are doomed to failure; the only viable approach is to attempt to change the perceptions within each religion.
Secondly, I don't think that spirituality is at all synonymous with religion. A kind of spirituality comes into play every time an event or circumstance influences our emotions as well as our intellect. It underpins our sense of morality and ethics, our concept of right and wrong. It is the touchstone against which we measure our use of science and logic. It allows us to identify the many occasions where the scientific approach is NOT the right approach. It is a necessary part of us, precisely because we are not logic-driven robots; we are animals - very successful animals, admittedly, but fallible creatures nonetheless.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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