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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > If only…
If only…  [message #37546] Tue, 24 October 2006 06:01 Go to next message
Nigel is currently offline  Nigel

On fire!
Location: England
Registered: November 2003
Messages: 1756



Before going to sleep last night I had one of those bouts of retrospection, namely what would I change about my life if I had it all over again. I realised that I enjoyed my homosexuality and wouldn't swap it for being hetero. I'd just admit it earlier and enjoy it more.

Hugs
Nigel



I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.

…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
Re: If only…  [message #37550 is a reply to message #37546] Tue, 24 October 2006 08:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I like that. I think I have to restrict myself to concious change. Unconciously (so to speak - back off, pedants all) I would wish to have been heterosexual without any of the stresses associated with it, but that is not a "change", that is a difference.

Consciously I would like to have had the strength to become open about myself when I knew I was queer (we were not gay in 1965), and to have openly courted the boys I was wishing I could have. I might not have been sucessful, but that is not important. I would have felt free.

Though that is rose tinted glasses. In 1965 we were not free. Our hair length was regualted, let alone our orientation. But I would have had the strength to cope with it.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: If only…  [message #37571 is a reply to message #37546] Tue, 24 October 2006 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Josh is currently offline  Josh

On fire!

Registered: April 2006
Messages: 1012



I think somewhere along the line, I always envied those who were hetero. And I thought like 'if i were like this, life would be a little easier' or something like that. And I guess that may be true in some cases, but I was born like this, and so I'll stay being homosexual.

I have accepted myself already, but sometimes I think it would be easier.

Anyway^^ *huggles all^^*

~Josh~



21.

Love who you want to.

~Josh~
Heteros do have their purpose.....  [message #37573 is a reply to message #37571] Tue, 24 October 2006 13:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



After all without breeding pairs there would be no progeny.....

but I see no other need.....



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Changing, not changing  [message #37577 is a reply to message #37546] Tue, 24 October 2006 13:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



I'm not very happy about being gay -- it doesn't make things any easier, and I have not yet found love which makes it all worthwhile. But I suspect I may appear somewhat asexual to others, and the chances are that, even if I were straight, unless I relentlessly pursued women I would not have had a girlfriend either. I suppose it would be useful to be gay and attracted to older men, because intellectually I seem to be better suited to them. Given the choice of one or the other, though, I would rather just be straight.

I've been starting to wonder lately (in part due to the recent changes in my sexual status) whether it is better to marry and have a family -- though of course acknowledging one's homosexuality or bisexuality; I'm not even certain which it is at the moment -- than it is to live a more unconventional lifestyle. As the eldest son of the eldest son going back at least ten generations, there would be a certain level of disappointment if I did not carry on the family name; albeit, I suppose, in generations of the family that are rapidly dying out. It's only an academic question at the moment, of course, but I still wonder about it.

I'm drifting, probably because I'm a little depressed at the moment. Sorry!

Getting back on topic, if I could change something, I think I would change my character somewhat, rather than my sexuality. I'm not terribly good at empathising with other people, understanding them, getting to know them, wanting to get to know them, and so on. This possibly has a slightly autistic basis, though I do not present that as an excuse. Perhaps the reason I love film is that I can understand the language of film better than I can the language of real life, even though they are superficially related. I see the world in a very black-and-white way: while I can and do change my opinion on something, it is unlikely to be without a great deal of scepticism. This, I suspect, makes me a difficult person to get to know. I'm also very disorganised and prone to obsessive-compulsive behaviour from time to time. If there were a pill to make this all go away -- even, I suppose, if it made me less individual, more "normal", more applied, less creative (though I'm not sure if I actually am creative...) -- I expect I would take it.

David
Re: If only…  [message #37592 is a reply to message #37571] Tue, 24 October 2006 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jack is currently offline  jack

Likes it here
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304





Hi,

I think one should be happy with who they are, you just have to be honest and above all be comfortable about yourself.
You never know how many people envy you ,you only know those who are jealous so they hurt you.
This all leads to us becoming confused today called depression.
You must live for today it is only at the end of life that you can look back, but I bet you, you would have succeeded because we all move at different levels


Smile



life is to enjoy.
Re: If only…  [message #37601 is a reply to message #37546] Tue, 24 October 2006 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



That's a pretty powerful thing to realise!



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37603 is a reply to message #37577] Tue, 24 October 2006 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Screeve is currently offline  Screeve

Getting started
Location: England
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 10



David, I can understand where you are coming from. At one time I thought I wasn't happy being gay, but it has taken me years to realise that I am just not happy. I could be straight, rich, have everything I wanted and I still wouldn't be happy. I am full of excuses as to why I don't converse with the real world - my current one is my health but several years ago it was because I was gay and hated the scene. Still do. I dislke how being gay is synonymous with sex. I want what my siblings have, the relationship, the children, but I will never have that. I also realise that I wouldn't have it if I were straight.

I dislike socialising and small talk, it takes a lot of energy for me. I don't understand the real world, people's motives etc. I, like you, find it much easier to understand films, they have a narative and a visual concept to which I can relate. There is no narrative in the real world, or at least not which I can find. Sometimes things do happen for no reason, and the bad guy will get away with it (but not in a film - or most at least). I have never seen myself as someone who engages with life, but someone who observes it.

Would I change anything about myself? I have no idea. I would not want to change my personality and become someone I am not. Perhaps the only thing I would do is to have come out earlier - it may have helped me through my teens and twenties better than being closeted did.

Would I take a pill to change who I am? Certainly not. I am me with all my faults and problems, without them I would be someone else. The ethical problem is when a condition forms part of your personality. Would I take a pill to cure schizophrenia? definately. Severe OCD? Probably. Mild OCD? This could possibly form a basis to my personality and explain why I can not only get obsessed with routine, but also principles and ensuring accounts balance even if it is only a few pence out which auditors would consider insignificant. It wasn't too long ago when being gay was considered a disease and treated with electro-shock.

But I am rambling, sorry. To be honest, I am unwilling to change and remove the crutches which keep me on the fringes on society.

Next time I'll just post 'I agree' - far more succinct!



Life can be endured or enjoyed
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37619 is a reply to message #37577] Tue, 24 October 2006 23:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian1407a is currently offline  Brian1407a

On fire!
Location: USA
Registered: December 2005
Messages: 1104



first, who said your not normal Deeej? Im as conviluted and mixed up as anybody can possibly be and I think Im normal. The only difference I can see is that I am content with being gay. Mostly because I have no choice. You are a thoughtfull, caring, helpful person. There is going to be someone special in your life, he just hasnt shown up yet.



I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........

Affirmation........Savage Garden
Digression on OCD  [message #37626 is a reply to message #37603] Wed, 25 October 2006 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Hi David,

Thank you for your post. It sounds like you and I have quite a lot in common.

>Would I take a pill to cure schizophrenia? definately. Severe OCD? Probably.

Oh, if only such a thing existed!

>Mild OCD? This could possibly form a basis to my personality and explain why I can not only get obsessed with routine, but also principles and ensuring accounts balance even if it is only a few pence out which auditors would consider insignificant.

As someone who suffered from severe OCD and still suffers from time to time from what I would term minor OCD, I have to say that as far as I am concerned both are horrible and that being prone to any form of OCD is so debilitating and distressing at the times it 'strikes' that I find it hard to believe that anyone would not wish to be able to get rid of it altogether. I wonder if when you say minor OCD you mean 'minor obsessional-compulsive traits'? I do not think OCD per se can be a basis for someone's personality: rather, it is a psychiatric disorder and develops only in certain people in certain circumstances. In mine it was a huge amount of stress from school work coupled with excessive disorganisation and a couple of lesser factors, plus one particular 'triggering event'. If I had not been in that precise situation it is likely that I would not have developed it. But my character would have remained the same, because there is much more to me than the things I worry about. I could still have been obsessional about things that matter without being horribly so over things that do not.

Obsessiveness is certainly a character trait, one that is required for a person to develop OCD, but in the vast majority of people it never approaches a disorder. I would agree that it is obsessive to check accounts over and over again, but it is not an obsessive compulsive disorder unless you find your work and personal life suffer, and you end up profoundly distressed because of your inability to stop checking (or washing, counting etc.).

If you've actually had clinically-diagnosed OCD and nevertheless see it as an integral part of your personality, please disregard everything I've said above!

>It wasn't too long ago when being gay was considered a disease and treated with electro-shock.

True. Homosexuality -- and almost any sexuality, in fact -- is not all that different from an obsessive compulsive disorder. The difference is that a sexuality can bring happiness: an obsessive compulsive disorder by definition does not.

Apologies also for rambling.

David

[Updated on: Wed, 25 October 2006 01:33]

Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37628 is a reply to message #37619] Wed, 25 October 2006 01:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Hi Brian,

Normal can mean anything you like. There is no person who is normal in every respect. I'm both normal (in that it is normal not to be normal) and not normal (because no-one is), and I tend to wheel out whichever definition is suitable for the circumstances!

You're right that there's no point in regretting something that can't be changed -- being gay. There are, however, different things that you can do about it. It is, for instance, possible to do what several people round here have done and marry a woman. It is also possible to stay single all one's life out of choice. I don't suppose I shall do either of those things, but at the moment I won't rule out the first one.

This thread is a thought experiment. We're considering things that we know we can't change.

David
Re: Digression on OCD  [message #37633 is a reply to message #37626] Wed, 25 October 2006 06:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Screeve is currently offline  Screeve

Getting started
Location: England
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 10



I have never been officially diagnosed with OCD but in my early twenties I did come very close to it ruining my life. It is something that is always in the back of my mind. I realise that people might think that I'm full of bull and can't possibly understand and to a certain extent I agree. I seem to have only had a taste of many conditions, both physical and mental. I have massive control issues, and if I feel that I am not in control then I spiral down very quickly. Over the years I have recognised this and in most cases put things in place to get back control. My GP has now refered me for CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) to help me with this as I am currently losing that battle. But I don't think they could ever beat the pessimist out of me.



Life can be endured or enjoyed
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37638 is a reply to message #37603] Wed, 25 October 2006 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



But I am rambling, sorry. To be honest, I am unwilling to change and remove the crutches which keep me on the fringes on society.

........ Unwillingness to change is nothing more than giving up on yourself. Every person is capable of changing the things that are problematic in their lives without changing their basic makeup.

No pill can change WHO you are.... but they surely can alter HOW you are.



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37641 is a reply to message #37628] Wed, 25 October 2006 11:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jack is currently offline  jack

Likes it here
Location: England
Registered: September 2006
Messages: 304



I totally agree with you.



life is to enjoy.
Re: If only…  [message #37643 is a reply to message #37550] Wed, 25 October 2006 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Thinking more about this, I know I have changed many things about myself. these include
  • Breaking my unhealthy obsession with my first and unrequited love
  • Becoming comfortable enough with myself to "come out" to selected people
  • Admitting to myself I am gay
  • Admitting to myself that I am by nature a "bottom"
  • Becoming able to tell selected people about this "bottom" sexual preference - now THAT is a preference! Gay is orientation - this was hard to admit. It felt somehow "dirty" until I worked it out in my head
  • Learning not to be upset personally when some jerk makes homophobic remarks
Quite a load of little things there.

Marc says something important about unwillingness to change lower in this thread. I'm absorbing that at present.

I'm sticking to the thing I would change if I could, though. That is a regret, so would be a valid change. I don't regret being gay, I regret not having dealt with the things I could change.

[Updated on: Wed, 25 October 2006 12:56]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37690 is a reply to message #37628] Thu, 26 October 2006 00:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kupuna is currently offline  kupuna

Really getting into it
Location: Norway
Registered: February 2005
Messages: 510



Deeej,

Being one of those who married a woman, I'm happy that I now, at long last, feel the freedom of having allowed myself to admit that I'm gay, and of having told my daughters and their spouses and a couple of friends about it. As Timmy says, in 1965 we weren't free, and although I can't envisage being without my kids I regret that it took me so long to come to my senses, and I wish I'd had someone to tell how much I love him.
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37692 is a reply to message #37690] Thu, 26 October 2006 00:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Sailor said,
>I regret that it took me so long to come to my senses, and I wish I'd had someone to tell how much I love him.

Would you rather this than never have had children at all?

David
I can only speak for myself.  [message #37694 is a reply to message #37692] Thu, 26 October 2006 01:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



Life would certainly have been easier if I hadn't been gay. It would probably have been easier if, having discovered that I WAS gay I had wholly accepted the fact. But, succumbing to the social pressure of the time, I married. Like Timmy, I married a girl with whom I fell in love, and am still in love. After some serious difficulties, we had two kids - now 25 and 22. I am in absolutely no doubt that bringing up my kids gave me greater pleasure than anything else I have done in my life. But, when the kids reached their late teens, my repressed gayness demanded release. This was not because I yearned for a gay relationship; I'm monogamous, and - gay or straight - I'm committed to my partner. It was simply a need to stop suppressing a major element of the real 'me'.

Now that I've dealt with that problem, if I review my life in retrospect I don't think there's much I'd try to change. Overall, I'm pretty sure that the tensions and traumas of my orientation have made me a better person, with much greater sensitivity to others than might otherwise have been the case.

If I hadn't married, I wouldn't have had the chance to bring up kids - gay adoption was unheard of 25 years ago - so I wouldn't have known what I was missing. In retrospect, I'm glad I made the choices I did - but in today's climate I might well have pinned my hopes on adoption. I don't, and can't know for certain - I just know that I do not regret my actions and I have no regrets about my orientation, which has enriched my life immensely.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Re: Changing, not changing - other side of the coin  [message #37701 is a reply to message #37690] Thu, 26 October 2006 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

On fire!
Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
Messages: 1558



In 1974, when I was 19, my 16 year old girlfriend became pregnant. It's not altogether clear if I was the father or not. I would cheerfully - wanted desperately - to marry her, and her pregnancy only intensified this. She was the only real girlfriend I'd ever had that properly understood that I was seriously interested in other guys (at that point in my life I still saw myself as bisexual) - we used to boywatch together! Unfortunately, she miscarried at three months (not an uncommon happening) and in the trauma of this happening, and her parents becoming aware of what was going on, we split up.

If I selfishly could change the unchangeable, she would not have lost the foetus, and we'd presumeably therefore have got married.

I don't kid myself that a marriage would have lasted. Physical fidelity was alien to her - indeed, I think that she felt the fact that I was interested in guys meant that I would sooner-or-later ask for a open relationship, and this would legitimise her own promiscuity (remember - this is pre-HIV). Knowing myself as I do now, actually I would have offered fidelity without asking for it in return. And that for certain would be an unstable dynamic within a relationship.

Of course, I wouldn't wish for things to have turned out for lone parenthood for either her or the child. But still, as I get older and the autumn eveings draw in, that is the big "what if" in my life. I would have made a good non-resident father ...

Oh well, I'm away this afternoon for a couple of days to see my siblings, nieces and nephew: trying my best to be a good uncle!



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37716 is a reply to message #37692] Thu, 26 October 2006 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kupuna is currently offline  kupuna

Really getting into it
Location: Norway
Registered: February 2005
Messages: 510



Deeej,

Having my two children, now 31 and 35, is the best thing which has happened to me, and telling them that I am gay has only served to deepen the bonds between us.

Basically, Cossie speaks for me, too, but unlike him I am no longer married. When my wife and I split some 12 years ago it gave me the opportunity to 'come to my senses', but instead I entered another relationship with a woman, something I came to regret deeply.

I have never been in a relationship with a man. While I was married being unfaithful was never an option, and it has taken me a long time to accept my sexual orientation. Now, living alone, I wish I had a partner.

If you ask me to choose between my children and a gay relationship, there is no doubt that I choose my children. However, things being the way they are, if I should fall in love with someone and the feelings are mutual, I might be lucky enough to have Winnie-the-Pooh's favourite solution: Both a male partner and the blessings of my children.

Regretting and complaining about the past isn't very fruitful. Times were very different then and my choices were based on the cards in my hands. Today I would have done things differently, not necessarily because what I did 40 years ago was wrong, but because the attitudes towards gays have changed dramatically, which would leave me with a wider range of options.
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37717 is a reply to message #37716] Thu, 26 October 2006 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Thank you, Sailor.

My perspective is slightly different -- I don't have any children of my own. But if one of my aims in life is to have children -- on the same level as finding a long-term partner, perhaps even higher -- then is it better to try and enter into a straight relationship or even marriage? The chances of adoption, and certainly of biological children, are much lower if one is in a gay relationship than if one is in a straight relationship.

It sounds like a number of people here wish in retrospect both to have had their children and yet also to have had an opportunity to come out and enter into a gay relationship earlier. This is something along the lines of having one's cake and eating it -- one, of course, makes the other much more difficult.

Sixty years ago I think my conclusion would have been fairly clear: I should aim to marry. But times have changed and it's very far from an ideal situation. The alternatives are to enter into an odd, open relationship (which is not really a good way to raise a child), or to hope for adoption, or maybe some variety of artificial insemination, provided a woman could be found.

Ah, well. If I do have children it will not be for ten or fifteen years, so I guess there is still plenty of time to work it out.

David
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37721 is a reply to message #37717] Thu, 26 October 2006 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I was not interested in having children. I was, instead, interested in a relationship. Not a gay one, just the one I wanted. it was not gay, what I wanted, it was just him.

Marriage arrived unexpectedly. Children, or rather a child, became obligatory, then rather nice to have around.

When you have "things" it becomes difficult to envisage not having them in an alternate scenario.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37725 is a reply to message #37717] Thu, 26 October 2006 22:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kupuna is currently offline  kupuna

Really getting into it
Location: Norway
Registered: February 2005
Messages: 510



I agree with you that 60, or even 20, years ago you wouldn't have had much choice. But things have changed and, hopefully, in not too long the question of adoption will be solved.

Whether to marry a woman or not is a question to which there is no key. I did love my wife, and still 'feel the vibes' when we meet, but my gay dreams and fantasies generated enough disturbances for our marriage to deteriorate, and I'm sure that I felt as helpless as my wife.

-- then is it better to try and enter into a straight relationship or even marriage?

My answer is 'no', unless you are sure that your 'straight' side is so strong that living with a woman doesn't collide with your dreams about a gay relationship, and that it's strong enough to prevent you from falling in love with a man. A firm commitment to love and cherish my wife didn't stop my dreams and fantasies.

I see no reason to complain about my own life, but I still feel sorry for the pain and frustration I inflicted on my wife, and for not having the courage to tell her that I was gay. If the internet had existed, if there had been someone to talk to about being gay, without fire and brimstone and condemnation, and I had known what sort of trouble my homosexuality might cause to a marriage, then I would probably not have married. Or, at least, I would have known the questions I would have to ask myself, and eventually, my obligation to tell my future wife and give her the right to choose. I have an enormous respect for the men who, unlike me, have had the guts to tell their wives that they are gay, and for their wives who, despite what they've been told, have chosen to stick to their husbands.

My desire for a child doesn't justify inflicting an unhappy marriage and home situation on myself, my partner or my child. A child isn't a means to my happiness, nor my property. He is a precious gift, for me to love and care for, unconditionally and for as long as it takes, until he leaves the nest. And when that day comes I am going to miss him.

I don't know if this answer is relevant to you, Deeej.
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37739 is a reply to message #37725] Fri, 27 October 2006 02:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian1407a is currently offline  Brian1407a

On fire!
Location: USA
Registered: December 2005
Messages: 1104



You said what I was going to. If you marry a woman to hide who you really are and she is not aware of the fact that your gay, that is cruel and unfair to the woman. If however you go into a relationship with a woman and she is awre of everything, then that is her choice. I know that the pressure years ago to SEEM normal was tremendous and many men fell into the trap. That is societys fault. The ones here who have children, I know are proud and happy to have them. I dont think a child could be more loved than by a gay parent. If I cant find the one guy in life who will be my life partner then I will just stay single. I would like to have children, but I will adopt mine and love them just as much as if they were my own blood.



I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........

Affirmation........Savage Garden
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #37769 is a reply to message #37739] Fri, 27 October 2006 21:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kupuna is currently offline  kupuna

Really getting into it
Location: Norway
Registered: February 2005
Messages: 510



With the level of information we have these days, to a great extent thanks to the internet, there should be no excuse for a gay man to marry a woman, and to repeat the errors some of us have made. However, many religious and community leaders, or football coaches, are deaf and blind to the obvious, and are unwilling to act according to facts. Instead, they insist that being gay is a hurdle to overcome, that it's sinful or disgusting, and that 're-orientation' or suppression are viable options.

When I, like I did in the schoolyard today, see a boy who wants some more contact with another boy than straight boys usually do, and see the sudden flash of fear in his eyes, that someone else may have picked up his signals, I know that there's still some way to go.

.. but I will adopt mine and love them just as much as if they were my own blood.

I know that you will. My second relationship with a woman brought me three stepsons, and even after a few years the youngest one still keeps visiting me, to let me serve him a dinner or a supper, and we always exchange hugs. I still love him and I know that the feelings are mutual. He always leaves things behind with me, because he knows that I don't mind and he'll soon be back anyway.
Re: If only…  [message #46030 is a reply to message #37550] Sat, 13 October 2007 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



I did national service from 1953 to 1955 and then was at university to 1958. I must have been amazingly lucky as I didn't feel inhibited from making passes at people (though, sadly, only one of those I loved was willing to love me back). When I was in the navy, stationed in Germany, I was able to share a room with my partner. At university I was never either 'openly' homosexual nor did I try to hide it particularly. I'm fairly sure most of my friends realised and accepted it - but I haven't asked them.

I was greatly surprised one day when a beautiful black man who I scarcely knew better than to say 'Hi' to came up to me and said "Would you like to sleep with a black man? I have a friend coming to stay who might like you!" Much to my surprise I said "Yes." but the thing is that I hadn't realised how I must have looked for it to be possible that Rex could come and say that to me!

I was accepted. I rowed in the first eight, I played chess and bridge for the college, I swam nude in the university men's bathing place (and got an all-over tan that was obvious enough in the changing rooms.

But if everyone knew, no-one mentioned it. I'm fairly sure that I had a much easier time coming to terms with myself than Timmy did even though it was way before the Wolfenden report and that was years before the law was changed to allow two consenting males to have sex behind a locked door!
[By the way I knew Jeremy Wolfended, the son of the man that chaired the enquiry.]

Anthony
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #46031 is a reply to message #37577] Sat, 13 October 2007 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Roger is currently offline  Roger

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: February 2007
Messages: 522



David....can I offer some advice. Dont appear to other people that you are untouchable. You dont have to shout it out or advertise that your gay and looking but dont be so closeted that nobody can tell even if they were intersted. Above all dont be afraid to love. That means loving yourself and eventually loving someone else. You can do the female thing and pretend your straight but in the end you will be miserable and will grow to hate yourself and those around you for your missery. Dont be pressured by family. At least you have one. I disowned my entire family many years ago and havent looked back. You are intelligent and very handsome and dont you dare come back and say your not. If I was the proper age I would sure date you. Maybe it is that you need an older gentleman, not anchient like me but one older, smarter, more mature. You live in a country that has laws that protect you. You have no idea how many times I have hoped that you will fall in love with someone. I know you would be amazed at how different you would feel. I wish I could tell you the wonder of it all. One day when you least expect it and when it does I will cry tears of joy for you, you deserve something and someone good.



If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
Re: If only…  [message #46035 is a reply to message #37546] Sat, 13 October 2007 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



I heartily agree with Nigel.

I**couldn't** want not to be homosexual; it would be wanting not to be me.

I don't think it's really possible to want to be someone else; nto if you understand what being someone else involves. It would be the extinction of one's self - the equivalent of suicide.

Anthony
Re: If only…  [message #46036 is a reply to message #46030] Sat, 13 October 2007 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



acam wrote:
> But if everyone knew, no-one mentioned it. I'm fairly sure that I had a much easier time coming to terms with myself than Timmy did even though it was way before the Wolfenden report and that was years before the law was changed to allow two consenting males to have sex behind a locked door!
> [By the way I knew Jeremy Wolfended, the son of the man that chaired the enquiry.]
>
> Anthony

I think the Wolfenden report era may have been harder to live through that the era before or after. Homosexuality was raised onto a plateau of disgust by the imbeciles in the media and schools.

A shame young Wolfenden died so young.

[Updated on: Sat, 13 October 2007 22:25]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #46052 is a reply to message #37577] Sun, 14 October 2007 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



David wonders whether it is better to marry and have a family.

It depends on whether that scene will suit you. It did suit me. I have always loved children and I certainly wanted my own. I told my wife I was gay and she accepted me and we have now been faithful to each other for over 44 years. We have two amazing daughters and each has two children and we all live within three miles of each other. The whole family knows that I'm gay and that I'm not about to demonstrate it. So for me getting married was a great success.

On the other hand I never came out to my parents (cowardice? or discretion?).

I think if I had been unable to marry and have children I might have found a life partner but easily might have failed. It would have been much more important then to cultivate friendships as without friends a gay old age can be so unpleasant - but so can a lonely heterosexual old age. But this depends on how gregarious you are.

Five or six years ago I volunteered to work for the Aled Richards Trust - it's the local AIDS charity (now part of the Terrence Higgins Trust). Before long I was elected to join the board of trustees and did quite a lot of work - including writing a computer system to keep track of the people that came to the trust for help. To my surprise I had a disagreement about the Trust's confidentiality policy and my offer to resign was accepted. That was fairly devastating as it left something like a couple of days a week suddenly empty.

I do see this as a choice. I don't think an 'open' marriage would work. I suppose, maybe I think jealousy is natural and too hard to overcome.

Anthony
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #46057 is a reply to message #46052] Sun, 14 October 2007 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Roger is currently offline  Roger

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: February 2007
Messages: 522



Anthony.........As a prof of a major University, myself and my partner were able to advise young gay men who had questions or needed problems worked thru. we had an open door policy at our home. We were both openly gay and for the biggest part was accepted on campus. I have managed to stay in touch with a lot of the students we taught. Some to hide their real nature married and yes had children. They are misserable because the have suppressed who they really are. A lot of these men wind up in local parks turning meaningless tricks with other men. even if the wife knows and accepts it doesnt lessen the desire to have a man to hold and be intimate with. The wives who dont know and then find out are hurt beyond imagining. That is such a crewl thing to do to a woman. I know, I have seen how these wives react. You cant say things are all hunky dorry. Even those that do know harbor resentment deep in their hearts.



If you stand for Freedom, but you wont stand for war, then you dont stand for anything worth fighting for.
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #46072 is a reply to message #37577] Sun, 14 October 2007 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CallMePaul is currently offline  CallMePaul

Really getting into it
Location: U.S.A.
Registered: April 2007
Messages: 907



It's certainly possible for a gay man to pretend to be hetro, marry and raise a family. That was a very common occurrence for my generation. It took a truly brave soul to do otherwise. But you have to wonder how much fulfilment there really is for that man. And is he able to maintain the façade for a lifetime? Look what happened to my State's senator Larry Craig... for the biggest part he hid it well. But, ultimately, it all came out in the wash.



Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #46074 is a reply to message #46057] Sun, 14 October 2007 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Not every marriage is good, and not every marriage is miserable.

Mine has great times and awful times. The great outweigh the awful. I am still gay, do not turn tricks in the park and am, usually, content.

But I miss what I do not have and have never had.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Changing, not changing  [message #46129 is a reply to message #46057] Tue, 16 October 2007 20:40 Go to previous message
acam is currently offline  acam

On fire!
Location: UK
Registered: July 2007
Messages: 1849



Yes, Roger, I do so agree that you have to accept who you are and what you are and your limitations. If this much is impossible then a fulfilling life begins to look rather unlikely.

If in addition you can be honest enough to tell other people and if they can accept it then that is so much better. Unfortunately there are many places?/societies?/environments? where gay people may find these conditions out of reach. Then the only thing to do is get out and if possible stay sane and don't get too bitter to recover in a more accepting society. For the academically gifted this release is so often at university. How marvellous for you to be able to do what you did and help those who knew they were gay and were willing to come for help.

But I'm sorry for those who were unwilling or lacking the self=knowledge or courage.

Anthony
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