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I've already had a fruitful discussion with Teddy.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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ProfZodiac
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Likes it here |
Location: United States
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 115
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That story scared the hell out of me. I only pray there was nothing inspiring it.
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I can only hope that there aren't all that many people for whom this story is true. Ignorant and selfish homophobia is one thing: child abuse is quite another. Jordan's parents seem horribly black and white, caricatures of real people: there is no hope for redemption for them. Jordan's change of heart struck me as almost surprising in the circumstances.
I appreciated reading it.
David
P.S. The implications of the story interested me. While it is self-contained, I think it could also represent the inciting incident for a longer novella or feature film, in which the rest of Jordan's problems could be addressed.
Like Adam, I hope that it is not entirely based on reality.
[Updated on: Fri, 27 October 2006 19:24] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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We're certainly in Teddy's hands over whether it continues or stays as it is. To me either outcome is perfect.
When he sent it to me for the first time the ending did not hold the glimmer of hope that the current version does. He altered it without losing the power in it - I feel that was a tremendous achievement. I asked him to look at the story again and to give us a future. Quite reasonably he has left us a finished unfinished tale.
He told me that parts of the story were firmly rooted in reality. I think some of us can see some of the reality in our own lives.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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It's a chilling story exactly because it could have been true. There are parents, one of them or both, who are only interested in their own business and welfare, and who regard their child mainly as a problem and an obstacle. As a teacher I know a few of them, and it's evident that there are children who survive, physically or mentally, only because of caring people outside their families.
I think some of us can see some of the reality in our own lives.
Yes, some of us can, which can make reading stories like this a challenge, but which can also advance our slow process of healing.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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To me it is the very banality of the circumstances in the story that makes it so chilling. Such an ordinary kid; such a "normal" family; such ordinary circumstances. All these combine to show another ordinary child who simply could not ask anyone for help on the way to a gallows of his or her own making, built on foundations laid by others.
[Updated on: Fri, 27 October 2006 22:36]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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"Normal", yes, but normal, no. A terrible situation. I am lucky never to have encountered anything like it in real life.
If I can make just one criticism, I would say that the situation is so bleak that it doesn't quite ring true for me. The parents have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Even the most unpleasant sociopath is charming occasionally to ensure that he or she can maintain the status quo. It is more common, almost worse, and certainly more tragic, if a child's parents have just enough decency that they would be in a situation to care, if only they were not so selfish and wrapped up in their own lives that they simply do not notice how their child feels.
Of course, I accept that it may sound more probable to people who live in America or come from that sort of background; I hope I haven't detracted from anyone else's appreciation of the piece.
David
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Hi,
Thanks for the comment's guys. Very appreciated. And profound thanks to Timmy for his encouragement over the last year or so and especially for hosting the story.
I've been lurking around this site for a number of years now. Posting on the rare occasion, and reading a good deal more, both here and on the Story Shelf.
As Timmy mentioned, this story has an element of personal experience contained within. It is, however, primarily fiction. It is an attempt to tell the story of the despair even "good kids" experience when they receive little or no validation, coupled with abuse be it emotional, physical, sexual, or any combination thereof. Say what we will, that despair is real and at times leads to catastrophic consequences. Although my chosen method of dealing with the pain was different from what Jordan chose, in retrospect, that method would surely have brought about the same end result had I followed through. It would simply have taken more time and been more horrifying as it played out. The reason I ultimately chose not to act on my despair was due to the influence of one or two committed educators in my boarding high school.
Everyone who's read Jordan has commented that it needs to continue, to tie up the loose ends, and/or expand the story. I have to say, that was my intention when the story first started developing. Now I'm not so sure. I like it the way it is, and as I was commenting to Nigel, life never does leave us a pretty package all wrapped up with a pretty bow. Live may indeed be good, but there are always loose ends. I like the story as it stands. He's come through his crisis. He has resolve. He's plotted his future in that he's mentally shaken off the shackles of his home life and is looking for better things to come. Don't get me wrong. I may indeed make a continuation of the story, but I have no plans to start to work immediately. There is a clue or two contained within the work as it stands that may give the astute reader some resolution to one or two of his questions.
I make no claims to being anything but a VERY amateur writer, so I'm pleased that I've received the response I have. Thank-you again for your input and for pulling together to create this "place of safety"
Hugs,
Teddy
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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Teddy, I think you are right to draw a line under 'Crossing Jordan'. That doesn't mean the end of the discussion for at a future date if you feel in need of continuation you could start an entirely new story with new characters, but with the background of Jordan, something where the hero comes out fighting at the start and says as Jordan did so positively (paraphrased): That's it, I've had enough, this is where pay back time begins.
Leave the unresolved parts of Jordan as mysteries. Be pleased that they have evoked a reaction. They can be classed under the heading of "How many children did Lady Macbeth have?".
It's always best for any entertainer to leave his audience wanting more.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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If you look at the same set of situations from the parental perspecptve, Jordan was a pest. He scratched the car, he keeps bothering his mother when she is, in her mind, "doing something else", and they are doing their best.
If they walked into Jordan's bedroom and found him dead they'd be appalled. "Our son was so sweet, so happy, so talented, so loving - only yesterday he told me how much he loved me"
Jordan has a different view. All he has ever wanted is to be loved and to feel loved. He's never been able to show that need in the right way. He's done everything he's supposed to do as a kid, and still no-one does anything except buy him stuff. When he tries to help his dad he gets rebuffed instead of helped not to be inept.
The thing is, we only see Jordan and his thoughts. We see his despair when he sees the boy he wishes for in the amrs of a girl having a fumble. We feel it when he talks to his folks. The whole story shows a kid overwhelmed by the sudden black despair that precedes a suicide attempt.
No-one's said that despair is rational, not ever. He just wants it to stop.
We have to hope that, if he had taken the tablets, his call for help by email would somehow have been delivered early. We know that woudl have been unlikely. We'll almost certainly never know what happened when it was received.
The overall situation is not bleak. This is a normal family with normal hopes and fears, normal pressures. It's just that one day all the circumstances conspired to push Jordan over the edge. We are just somewhat privileged to start to understand his thoughts at the time.
[Updated on: Sat, 28 October 2006 10:47]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I incline towards ending it precisely there. My reasons are simple:
As a story it is finished. There is an ending, although there is not closure.
As a beacon for someone in despair it does not paint a picture of anything more than hope. Jordan will wake up. He may or may not get a positive reaction from his email. He may work out how to handle his parents. He may not get anything he wants. But one thing has changed. His scream for help has arrived somewhere.
So something in his life will be different.
My opinion does not matter in the least. It's an opinion. Opinons are as useful as a navel after we're born. Actually less useful - you can keep salt in the navel when eating celery in bed. (I so wish I had made that up! It comes from my all time favourite comedic person)
[Updated on: Sat, 28 October 2006 19:45]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Does your parents know how you feel?
Did they when you were younger?
Can a parent really know what is in the mind and heart of their children unless the child decides to enlighten the parent?
Why wouls it or should it be more probable that it happen here?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc said,
>Do your parents know how you feel?
They do when I wish them to know, yes. And I wish them to know, as is natural, when I am in need of help.
>Did they when you were younger?
Usually, yes. Not about my sexuality specifically, no. When I reached a crisis point for a different reason at 16, they did not know -- I was at boarding school at the time -- but I had no doubt that the right thing to do was to tell them.
>Can a parent really know what is in the mind and heart of their children unless the child decides to enlighten the parent?
No.
>Why would it or should it be more probable that it happen here?
In this story the character Jordan asks his parents several times for sympathy, for love. He is tearful, depressed. These strike me as deliberate hints from him to his parents that something is not right within -- in other words, a plea for help. Most parents would respond to that, even if they would much rather be selfish and ignore it. That he changes his mind afterwards backs up this idea; throughout the story he is evidently at the wavering stage (he does not know whether to kill himself) rather than the decisive stage (nothing will stop him from killing himself).
I agree it is possible that the parents belong to the small percentage of parents who are both selfish and either sociopathic (they want their son to feel awful) or incredibly unobservant, but this does not strike me as so likely as that they are mildly or distractedly sympathetic, but do not realise the magnitude of the problem until afterwards (when it is, or it could have been, too late). In other words, the plot could have been almost the same without the Dursley-type characters: the parents could have been a bit more rounded, less caricatured. It would also have the benefit that it is a more common situation. Most parents love their children, and I would hazard a guess that more children who kill themselves or get close to killing themselves have parents who actually love them, but who fail to show it in time, than who really could not care less.
This is all theoretical, however, and I am not trying to provoke an argument or to suggest that the story is not very worthwhile as it stands. It is always difficult to be frank when the author of a work is within earshot, because of the danger of being misconstrued. It's opinion, and I don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to agree with me.
David
[Updated on: Sat, 28 October 2006 23:18] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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That is really my point. Even when I eventually told my mother what my upbringing had been like she both didn't easily believe me, and then was aghast that I had felt the way I had and feel the way I do.
She was a good parent doing her best, but her best was wrong, plain wrong.
In general we are not talking of malicious nor abusive parents. We're just talking about ordinary mums and dads who just do not think.
It's not to do with gay kids and their parents, it's ALL kids and their parents. Jordan was, in his eyes, unloved and unappreciated way before the gay stuff arrived to add to his issues. It's about simple things, things so banal that no-one would think they matter enough to hurt a child. But they do matter and they do hurt.
Add just one more weight to the burden and the child, feeling they have no-one to turn to, might just try to die. Worse, they might succeed.
Those of us who are parents risk being thought of in the ay Jordan thinks of his parents. Even if we are careful to check with our kids that we are doing ok, unless we listen to them carefully there is a risk we will screw up. I was imperfect with my son, but he and I have alwasy discussed things. Even so he was badly bullied at his first school but never said a word to us about it until quite recently because he could not see how it would change a thing.
Kids keep secrets for their own reasons.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I disagree with you about Jordan's parents. You have had the good fortune to have parents whom you could ask about things and I am sure it is that frame of reference you are using, but I know you know they got a few big thigs wrong, one of which we have talked about in detail and the other of which we have chosen to step away from. What is done is done.
Just remember that we are shown the family solely from Jordan's perspective. It is quite possible that his perspective is warped, but it is his perspective and he lives within it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Do read, also, what Teddy says:
>As Timmy mentioned, this story has an element of personal experience contained within. It is, however, primarily fiction. It is an attempt to tell the story of the despair even "good kids" experience when they receive little or no validation, coupled with abuse be it emotional, physical, sexual, or any combination thereof. Say what we will, that despair is real and at times leads to catastrophic consequences. Although my chosen method of dealing with the pain was different from what Jordan chose, in retrospect, that method would surely have brought about the same end result had I followed through. It would simply have taken more time and been more horrifying as it played out. The reason I ultimately chose not to act on my despair was due to the influence of one or two committed educators in my boarding high school.
Ask him what was real and what was not. And realise he will tell you from his perspective. It is the only one he has.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I agree with everything you say, Timmy.
I just do not think that Jordan's parents come into the category of "good parents doing their best". They are monsters, not "normal" people. The result is a slightly less universal story.
Jordan's unhappiness does not strike me as being due to his sexuality; it is because of far more than that. If the worst comes to the worst, one can usually hold out until one comes of age without "coming out". But being criticised for everything one does is appalling, not banal at all, and certainly not something that I would regard as not mattering enough to hurt a child. I find it almost physically painful to watch a parent scolding a child where the child's only fault is to have failed to anticipate the wishes of the parent.
David
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I suspect that our differing opinions reflect different perspectives and that there is no need for us to argue: after all, we are referring to a fictional situation in a story, and stories are subject to interpretation. I have very high and perhaps idealistic standards for what I would expect of a parent.
David
[Updated on: Sat, 28 October 2006 23:49] |
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The story may be fiction, but it does happen.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I'm going to stick to "banal" and to "good parents". I don't know how many parents you observed while going through school, nor whether you were equipped, for no other reason than your youth, to observe them and the way they behaved to their kids.
Most of them did a decent job. Some did a good job. A very few did a great job. But there was a minority who screwed up. They didn't do it on purpose, and they didn't do it knowing they were doing it. But they were brought up poorly themselves.
A good parent catches their child doing something right, however hard the child makes it to do so, and finds reasons to praise amidst a whole set of actions that "should" bring down the wrath of the gods onto the child's head.
A poor parent, even one trying hard to be good and missing, will lecture of tell off, or browbeat, or even yell. They can't praise beacsue they have no idea (their upbringing) that it is needed. Outwardly, especially if they do not reveal the scolding side outside the immediate family, they will appear to be good parents. By their own lights they are good parents. By any yardstick they are good people. They cause no trouble, are pleasant and sociable, and in many ways are very oridinary and normal. It is just that their child deserves better from them.
Every scoldng is banal. "How often have I told you to put yout pillows straight?" "Why did you leave your bike there again, can't you ever do as I ask?" They go on and on and on. And the recipient begins to doubt their self worth.
There are no big rows. There is no "You stole £100 from my wallet" event. It is all just dripping, insidious, horrible. But each incident is banal. And the parenst are, in their own way, good parents.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I don't think we're arguing 
All we have are different perspectives. It may be as simple, perhaps as trite, as "I have simply seen more than you". It may be more complex. We each have very high standards. That makes us special, it does not make us normal.
I have hugely high standards for parenting and I let my own son be bullied for nine years because I had no idea. That doesn't make me a bad parent, or even an incompetent one. It simply means that I was not allowed by him to know what was happening. And he knew I was hugely supportive of him. Our agreement was "Make sure you tell me the truth about an incident and I will go into battel for you." He simply chose that I did not go into battle.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Perhaps I have been lucky -- all my friends from school have, as far as I can tell, had fairly or very happy childhoods. I have not seen any evidence in parents of scolding or excessive complaining or anger at minor transgressions; I appreciate that they might not have done so when friends were around, but nor has anyone indicated to me that anything along those lines happened when I was not there either. I speak from the perspective of a child, and not that of a parent, for I am not one.
I appreciate that there are people like Brian who have not been so lucky, and while my heart goes out to him and I worry every day how he is, I do not think this is a common situation. Not in the UK, anyway. I may be wrong, but I hope to goodness I am not.
I will take everything you say as quite possibly true for some (many?) people. But I cannot agree with your final sentence, "And the parenst are, in their own way, good parents." They are not good parents by any standards, for a good parent must give unconditional love and support and kindness.
David
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That is interesting, but understandable given your son's character. Provided he took the decision not to tell you in full knowledge of the support you would provide if you could, then I do not think it makes you a bad parent at all.
I was bullied occasionally at school. To a certain extent, one just has to put up from it, to learn from it: it's a preparation for real life. In retrospect I can feel smugly superior to the bullies and/or sociopaths who were too immature to realise that it is not a reasonable way to behave (ahem, Gervis).
David
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Fiction is fiction; I either like it or I don't. I may be impressed by the quality of the writing (and in this case it is of a good standard) or by the coherence of the plot (and, again, I have no criticisms in that respect) even though I do not like like the places to which the plot takes me. The latter situation is simply a case of personal preference, and I don't feel entitled to pontificate about what is right and what is wrong. The two comments I wish to make are thus responses to comments already made in other posts and are not in any way criticisms of the story itself.
Firstly, I wholly accept Timmy's comment that Jordan's perception is biased, but I think that Deeej is absolutely right to say that these parents are not simply incompetent; they are downright bad. Two things force me to that conclusion. What reasonable parent would react to Jordan's accidental (and minor) damage to the family car by driving over his bicycle? And what reasonable parent would drag their child to a car concourse and refuse to let them sit in the vehicle when the rest of the participants were happy to inclde their families? Those are acts of constructive cruelty, not merely examples of parental inadequacy.
Secondly, whilst I think that the story has a good deal to say to failing parents, it is unlikely to reach that market. With its present ending, it's an acceptable story for the adult reader - and by adult I am not drawing any distinction between mature or immature thinking; I simply mean an individual who is no longer subjected to parental control. For someone who IS still in anything approaching Jordan's situation, I have to disagree with Timmy; I see this as a very bleak story devoid of any message of hope. That is simply because, on the information placed before us, there is an extremely high probability that Jordan will die. On that basis, the message to other potential suicides can only be to follow Jordan's example, and that is surely dangerous. If the story is to fulfill its potential as a positive disincentive to suicide, we need to know that Jordan survives, finds the strength to go on with his life and realises that suicide was NOT the answer to his unhappiness.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Suicide is like a stone tossed in water. It starts in the center but works its way out to affect tthe whole pond.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... that we need to show that there's a real alternative to suicide - even if it isn't an easy option.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I find it interesting the varying conclusions that are drawn when people from different backgrounds, upbringings, what have you, see an incident or read a story such as this. Each of us unknowingly brings to that experience our own particular slant based on our own life experiences.
I gather from the responses here that a number of us see little if any hope contained in this story. Others of us, myself included see the ending of the story loaded with hope, even dripping with it.
To me, Timmy's perspective is the correct one, or perhaps more properly, the one I intended the reader to take. This story is written entirely from Jordan's perspective as a child and teen and as such is colored by his experience. Jordan's parents have deep issues of their own which keep them from seeing or understanding how damaging their actions are to their child. They would indeed be appalled if they entered his room in the AM and found him dead. They simply haven't a clue. Bad parenting to be sure, even evil to some extent, but not necessarily deliberate. They are, from all indications given in the story, a middle or even upper middle class family. They do all the right things. Know all the right people, attend the right church, etc. Still, they have their own issues and their lives are lived in a way that attempts to anesthetize their pain over those issues. Jordan receives the fallout.
After reading one or two of your posts, I believe I will try to at least add another chapter which will bring about further developments in the plot which I hope will be to your liking. I do not want nor did I ever intend this story to bring any other message other than hope. As I said previously, it would appear that each of us will see things from a perspective colored by our own experience.
Again, Thanks to all of you for making this "place of safety" what it is.
Hugs,
Teddy
[Updated on: Sun, 29 October 2006 06:12]
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No........
Suicide is like the stone at the bottom of the pond after it has been thrown....... It lies there inert.... Only the ripples remain at the waters surface.... and then only for a moment and then gone... forgotten...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Teddy wrote:
>
> I gather from the responses here that a number of us see little if any hope contained in this story. Others of us, myself included see the ending of the story loaded with hope, even dripping with it.
Of course you do see hope, you said there is much of yourself in the work.... It could hardly be otherwise... But for others... I just do not see it...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Purely from a storytelling perspective please think carefully about another chapter. It may be tough to write anything as a followup that is not in some way bland. That doesn't mean "don't do it". It just means I think the task will be hard.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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We are definitely not, as you point out and agree, discussing literary merits. It struck me when I opened this thread that the points raised would be both interesting and useful, despite being painful.
I will link the story to these threads on the basis that it does merit more thought than a "simple read through".
If we look for an "enjoyable" tale, this is not enjoyable in the least degree. It is extremely challenging, probably the more so since it is well crafted. Evidence of this is the different opinions each of us brings to the party, each, probably, prompted by our own experiences.
Again I simply want to remind us all that this board is often more for those who just read than for those of us who post. Our thoughts and opinions will match those of many readers here, each finding their own set of thoughts mirrored or contested. It is that process that may help just one person choose to go to natural sleep instead of taking the tablets, and to consider further the next day what is truly important.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Or ir could do the opposite....
It is all in the eye of the reader.... Each one....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Except, in general, those who act on the impulse are unlikely to be stopped by anything at all. Those who have already decided have decided.
It is not a tale that encourages suicide. It's not one that discourages it, either. It is just a tale that makes someone think. All that matters is thinking. Each has a right to their own decision.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> Except, in general, those who act on the impulse are unlikely to be stopped by anything at all. Those who have already decided have decided.
>
> It is not a tale that encourages suicide. It's not one that discourages it, either. It is just a tale that makes someone think. All that matters is thinking. Each has a right to their own decision.
True enough, each person has a right to their own decision.
But you say that all that matters is thought... What if the thought provoked is a thought in favor of that final step?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Timmy said
>It is not a tale that encourages suicide. It's not one that discourages it, either. It is just a tale that makes someone think. All that matters is thinking. Each has a right to their own decision.
Do you not think it is important to try and turn around the thinking of someone who may be contemplating suicide? Or do you think that is encroaching on their decision?
It must take a great deal of courage to suicide and its a matter of turning that courage around to face what they believe to be unfaceable.
I believe that in a lot of cases they make a final plea for someone who just cares.
Once the light goes out there is no thinking.
Aussie
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Then I am sad. But equally I cannot condemn the choice. I can be angry because they chose to die. I can rail against selfish acts. I can do a lot to say that I wish it had been different. But I must respect the decision. All I ask is that they think longer and decide well. And do not hurt those they leave behind.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I feel that all I or anyone else can do is to ask them to think. Many of us have been close to stepping over that edge, some closer than others. Some have started to step, others have decided that the edge was too close and stepped back.
A few years ago here we had a couple, one who died by accident and the other who chose death because he felt life was no longer worth living. I miss them both. I wish neither death had happened. Each was a waste, in some ways the more so since each was in a "giving" profession. And yet I can only respect, though disagree with, the decision to die to follow his partner.
There was thought. Who is to say categorically that death is wrong? If the thought has been sufficient and the conclusion is reached to act and if no-one is hurt by the act of leaving, though I do not approve, I respect it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy said, on suicide:
>I cannot condemn the choice.
...
>All I ask is that they think longer and decide well. And do not hurt those they leave behind.
And if they do -- would you condemn them then? If not, why not?
I think it is possible -- indeed, in many cases, the only honourable thing -- to condemn someone's decision without wishing to restrict his or her right to take it.
Perhaps we are using a different meaning of the word "condemn".
David
[Updated on: Sun, 29 October 2006 13:57] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I think we are using the word differently. I certainly do not approve of the choice. I dislike it. I am hurt by it. But, to me, that is not condemnation, which has religious or pseudo religious connotations of damnation.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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