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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Yesterday I closed a chapter. The story refused to be written. Yet it still feels odd.
Odder is that I read parts of it again and have no recollection of ever having written it. It was as though I'd picked up a book and was reading words from a different writer.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I appreciated it.
Did you ever consider collaborating with someone?
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Collaboration could be interesting, but how? I can't collaborate easily because I can't plan when I write.
I could, for example, collaborate with you as a film maker. There are two, perhaps three, short stories that might make the transition with heavy screenwriting, to the screen.
But the oddness is really that of finding the stories to have been "Written by someone else"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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The way I write is to plan in infinitessimal detail up ahead everything that happens, the purpose of every event, its contribution to character and plot, it's "meaning". I have the entire story summarised as notes and in my head well before I put pen to paper (or hand to keyboard). This process lends itself well to collaboration, and collaboration is essential for the sort of things I write (film scripts and treatments for film scripts).
In your case, what I meant was to ask whether you had ever considered mapping out in note form exactly what it is that makes each character tick, their ideas and ambitions, using these to establish an end point or goal, and then discussing with someone else how the story might get there and what scenes would need to be written to facilitate it. This might have been a way of getting over writer's block. If that person was good enough, you might even be able to let him write for you, in the way a screenwriter writes for a director.
If you write in an entirely different way -- you aren't sure what you have to say until you say it -- then that would make collaboration very difficult, perhaps even impossible. I can see that. But I think it would be a viable way of proceeding with Chris and Nigel if you still wanted to.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Oh I know what makes the characters tick. I just have never had any idea what they were going to do. 
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy said,
>Oh I know what makes the characters tick. I just have never had any idea what they were going to do.
Well, it could be that you do have characters, but these characters have nothing to drive them. The essence of a good story is conflict, difference of opinion, drama. These can only occur if the principal characters are dynamic: they respond to the events around them, participate, and shape them according to their specific character traits. You can have a character that rings true in every way but if he is passive, content with his lot, and does not impact the course of events and the other characters around him, there is no story. If all the characters are in agreement at any particular point the story has basically fizzled out.
I have to say that "I just have never had any idea what they were going to do" may be an indication that they characters are not well-rounded enough to stand up to further sequels. The most common reason for formerly interesting characters to seem bland is that their issues have already been worked out. The purpose of a love story is to bring together two people. If they are already together at the start of the story, there is no opportunity for the story to go any further, unless i. you pull them apart again, ii. you change the genre and reorganise the balance of the story entirely (so their goal is something entirely different -- but what?), or iii. you make someone else (someone with new issues, flaws) the protagonist (which means it's not really a sequel at all). In all three cases you still need to give each character a different set of needs and opinions and make sure that these are demonstrated through the writing.
You may also be giving your characters situations that are too unambiguous or mundane and confirm their expectations (giving them no opportunity to impact other people and change the course of events).
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Interesting thoughts. Mills and Boon or Harlequin Romance has a simple formula. "Boy meets girl; boy loses girl; a bodice is ripped; boy gets girl again after adversity."
Another way of looking it is a character that may even be wholly without charisma wins our approbation after starting out on an imposisble quest against overwhelming odds.
Much, perhaps all, fiction is formulaic. The formula has survived because it works. If you look at my short stories they are mostly carbon copies of each other. Broadly they are the "impossible quest" type: the imposisble quest of finding another gay boy who attracts the hero and is attracted to him.
Look at the longer story. It's a mixture of each formula. The lovers come together in the first chapter. They never quite lose each other, but they do fight, and they upset each other, and they are scared of losing each other. The quest is to learn to live as a gay schoolboy couple in an environment that is only gradually accepting.
Don't confuse two dimensional characters with two dimensional settings. The peripheral characters are mildly developed when they have a part to play, but we never learn much about them. The major characters? We know, pretty much, what their favourite soap is, what they like to eat, and whether their farts smell sweet, though all from one key player's perspective.
The setting, that is two dimensional. Breathing varied three dimensional life into a mundane place like a large school minute after minute is implausible. This is not Grange Hill (though the plot would not have been out of place in it). Once the setting comes alive, then the characters can live. And there are enough characters to create sub-plots, diversions, all sorts of things.
There is a wealth of plot potential left. The storyline with Billy and Geoff is quite terrifying in my head. It has the scope to tear the school apart, and to tear our two heroes apart with it. And, as a technical exercise in writing, it is not difficult to write. But, if the boys will not speak the words "in character" then the entire premise fails. And for three years they have not spoken with their own voices; the voices are, instead, mine. And it does not work any more.
But none of this is what I find odd.
What I find odd is that I absolutely do not recognise having written a single word of it. I know I wrote it. I recall writing it, but I find it an unfamilar text when I read it. I read it as a reader, nor as the author. It is new to me. Fresh.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Could it be that the bits that seem unfamiliar are bits that you put in because you felt they *ought* to be there, rather than because they needed / the characters passionately wanted them to be there?
That seems to me to be why some sections of reports etc I wrote some years ago occasionally ring no bells at all while other sections I could still repeat practically word for word - and why on recently discovering some of the poems I'd written as a teenager I could remember struggling with almost every line.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I know what you mean. But I can recall verbatim the poems I wrote way back then.
No, it's all the stories. It's as though I was elsewhere when they were written
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Two dimensional settings do not matter. All that matters is that the characters are three dimensional. This is much more than knowing what their favourite soap is, though -- if soap is important to the character, then we also need to know why it is. [Edit: I wrote this thinking you meant hand soap! You are more likely to have meant soap opera, but the point stands either way.] To take a more realistic example, it's important not just to know that a character is rude and agressive, but to learn why that character is rude and agressive. Any amount of detail can be invented, but to make a person three-dimensional it should be relevant, important to his character, and consistent. If a detail can be changed to something else without affecting the character much then it is not important.
For there to be a basis to a story, a three dimensional character also has to have specific unresolved emotional issues at the point the story starts -- or at least his issues have to become unresolved very quickly after the story starts. These are then dealt with over the course of the action and are finally resolved at the end. This is formulaic but I cannot think of any great, universal character-driven stories for which this is not the case. Indeed, I think it may well be part of the definition of "great".
>But, if the boys will not speak the words "in character" then the entire premise fails. And for three years they have not spoken with their own voices; the voices are, instead, mine. And it does not work any more.
What do you mean when you say 'the voice'? Are you talking of dialogue or action? Personally, I am not very interested in dialogue -- it's usually the last thing that's ever written on a film script.* What is more important is thought and action, especially where action reflects a decision, and the decision is motivated by thought, and the thought is tempered by character traits and emotional state. These are the things that tell you most about people. This is, of course, one of the tenets of film-making, but it applies in any storytelling medium.
David
*The short film I hope to make soon currently has four lines of dialogue between the two principal characters. I would have liked to make it none at all. I'm aiming to make a film that a person who does not speak a word of English could understand perfectly.
[Updated on: Wed, 25 October 2006 21:58] |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Deeej wrote:
>This is much more than knowing what their favourite soap is, though -- if soap is important to the character, then we also need to know why it is.
I just said we know what it is, not whether it was important
> >But, if the boys will not speak the words "in character" then the entire premise fails. And for three years they have not spoken with their own voices; the voices are, instead, mine. And it does not work any more.
>
> What do you mean when you say 'the voice'? Are you talking of dialogue or action?
In things I write it is the dialogue that indicates the action that's taking place since most of the action per se is inside the heads of the participants. So the characters have to speak their words "themselves".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Tim said,
>I just said we know what it is, not whether it was important
Ah, but if you mention it, you evidently think it is more important than I would -- I would not mention it at all! I countered your words because from the context it sounded like you were using these small details as an indication of how well you/we know the characters. I would say instead that they distract from the major details.
>In things I write it is the dialogue that indicates the action that's taking place since most of the action per se is inside the heads of the participants. So the characters have to speak their words "themselves".
I think this is probably a difference of outlook rather than something we can reasonably argue about. I see words as a mechanism only for getting across concepts, and rarely see them as beautiful (though I do see them as functional and I hate it when other people are rough with them!). I believe that photography and cinematography can convey emotions that no words ever could. I'm not really a fan of poetry, nor of reading Shakespeare (though Shakespeare acted well is something else entirely), and I read prose for the concepts and detail rather than the experience. But others vehemently disagree, and in many cases I can see why they do even though I cannot really empathise. I would assume that you are in that camp.
Practically speaking, I do think that dialogue can be planned in advance, though, and placeholders put in -- the dialogue can then be worked on independently afterwards, if it is causing problems in the present. That's what I tend to do when writing screenplays, because dialogue is not my forte.
David
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Perhaps it might be instructional to consider the unconscious ways in which the creative mind often works.
Take Tchaikovsky, for example (one of the more self-critical composers of all time). When he accepted the commission to write the score for the ballet "The Nutcrackere", he did so unenthusiastically, thinking the story just didn't lend itself to treatment as a ballet. But then he started composing, and in the process making the music more of a symphonic poem than a ballet score (especially the second half of Act 1, arguably some of his absolute finest music).
Leonard Bernstein, whenever he conducted one of his own compositions, would study the score beforehand just the same way he would study any other score prior to conducting it, and while doing so would sometimes notice that some detail or other had simply "written itself" into the music, with no recollection on his part of having done so. It also seemed to work the other way around. I often wonder if he wasn't studying the Beethoven "Emperor" Concerto around the same time he was writing "West Side Story": in the song "Somewhere", the musical phrase on which "There's a place for us" is sung comes directly from the slow movement of the Beethoven "Emperor" Concerto (and I hasten to add that I am in no way accusing Bernstein of plagiarism...that's just one of several examples of similar "influence" that I've discovered through the years). And speaking of "West Side Story": when he conducted a recording of it in the mid 80s (the only time he ever conducted "West Side Story" the music itself), he hosted a cast meeting at his apartment, at which he told them, "I must warn you that I know this score extremely well. I didn't two weeks ago."
That's just how the human mind works, it seems. We can recall the most trivial things that happened decades ago; yet when it comes to remembering what we had for dinner last Friday, we're at a loss.
We do not remember days...we remember moments.
Cesare Pavese
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Deeej wrote:
> Tim said,
> >I just said we know what it is, not whether it was important
>
> Ah, but if you mention it, you evidently think it is more important than I would -- I would not mention it at all! I countered your words because from the context it sounded like you were using these small details as an indication of how well you/we know the characters. I would say instead that they distract from the major details.
It was a metaphor.
> >In things I write it is the dialogue that indicates the action that's taking place since most of the action per se is inside the heads of the participants. So the characters have to speak their words "themselves".
>
> I think this is probably a difference of outlook rather than something we can reasonably argue about. I see words as a mechanism only for getting across concepts, and rarely see them as beautiful (though I do see them as functional and I hate it when other people are rough with them!). I believe that photography and cinematography can convey emotions that no words ever could. I'm not really a fan of poetry, nor of reading Shakespeare (though Shakespeare acted well is something else entirely), and I read prose for the concepts and detail rather than the experience. But others vehemently disagree, and in many cases I can see why they do even though I cannot really empathise. I would assume that you are in that camp.
>
> Practically speaking, I do think that dialogue can be planned in advance, though, and placeholders put in -- the dialogue can then be worked on independently afterwards, if it is causing problems in the present. That's what I tend to do when writing screenplays, because dialogue is not my forte.
Anything can be planned in advance. It is sticking to the plan that is not always easy. Different creative brains work differently. You need to allow for that and tolerate it.
[Updated on: Wed, 25 October 2006 22:39]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I think that your lack of self-identification with your writing is a far from uncommon phenomenon. Strangely, it seems that the more intense the writing experience, the more likely it becomes that the phenomenon will strike. It's pretty obvious that you were wholeheartedly committed to your stories - especially to Chris and Nigel - so I guess that you were always a high risk case!
It doesn't even have to be fiction. I've written quite a lot of reports, overviews, summaries and strategies, a fair amount of this being in the public domain. I certainly find that when I go back to something I wrote two or three years ago it often seems unfamiliar - the one reassuring thing is that I'm usually surprised because the writing is better than I thought I was capable of - I hope the same is true for you!
The second thought follows up one of Deeej's suggestions - the idea of collaboration. The 'Inspector Morse' series on TV consisted of (I think) 33 episodes, including all of the novels by Colin Dexter - but around half of the episodes were original screenplays, and in the main there was a seamless join between Dexter's work and the original screenplay episodes, for which Dexter was merely an advisor. It doesn't always work - the 'Dalziel and Pascoe' episodes based upon the novels by Reginald Hill are generally far superior to the wholly original screenplays, and the difference in characterisation is fairly evident - and much shallower in the original screenplays.
The thing is, 'Chris and Nigel' is an immensely popular story - among the best of its kind on the net. Have you considered the possibility of collaboration on the clear understanding that you had final editing rights? If that were possible, your readership would be very happy!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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cossie wrote:
> I think that your lack of self-identification with your writing is a far from uncommon phenomenon. Strangely, it seems that the more intense the writing experience, the more likely it becomes that the phenomenon will strike. It's pretty obvious that you were wholeheartedly committed to your stories - especially to Chris and Nigel - so I guess that you were always a high risk case!
I knew I was a high risk case for something!
> The thing is, 'Chris and Nigel' is an immensely popular story - among the best of its kind on the net. Have you considered the possibility of collaboration on the clear understanding that you had final editing rights? If that were possible, your readership would be very happy!
The challenges in this are immense. Not insurmountable, but immense:- The location is a bastardised version of the place I grew up in, with streets leading to places they just don't go to, housing looking just as it does today, but still with the ethnic mix of my own childhood. The main town is a weird mixture of how it was in 1965 and how it is today. The setting itself is "Period English" uprooted and frozen to be the present day. One could understand the geography, but only by being there and seeing it.
- The characters are pretty well known, in itself that's no trouble. The challenge is making them speak and act. My challenge there would be "If they speak to someone else they may speak in a different way".
- The way I frame sentences in the story is not "traditional": Short sentences: one word sometimes; lack of verbs; odd rhythms using the punctuaton of thought, not of speech.
I'm not saying "It can't be done", but who woudl even attempt it knowing that- the audience is likely to be mega critical
- I am unlikely to find the work either familiar or in character
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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If the chapter is truly closed then why does it seem that a revolving door to the closit has been installed.
Over is over.... Your story is your story.... No one can write your story other than you.... Reguardless of who seems to think they have the talent to write it for you.......
You want to write, then write.... but write something that is from within you, not something from some other person that is a diluted version of some other persons wish to be you....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I have not installed the door. Maybe one day I will find something more I can write about the lads. Today it is not happening, and the people who wanted to know what was going to happen now know
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Oh I know you didn't install it.... Others have though....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It's very flattering to have people want it to continue. But, apart from the one plotline that refuses to come, there is almost nothing left to say. It started getting forced about 4 chapters from the end of book 2. Or not forced, but I wrote because I ought, not because it flowed freely.
What can happen to these kids now? There are no more challenges for them to face save being outed.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I find, when a lot of time has passed on a given project, that passing it off to someone I trust to read and give me their trusted take on things often helps me jump start my own creative processes. Like getting an outside opinion to base my own ideas off of, and reconstruct the thread I once followed.
Just an idea.
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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Timmy,
Nigel and Chris were the very gay fiction I ever read. IOMFATS the first website of it's kind I ever stumbled onto. I respect your decision to walk away from the story and leave it as it is. I truly believe you've done the best thing.
I could not have said that nearly 3 years ago when I ran out of story before I was ready to. In the intervening time, I've learned a great deal about myself. I've grown a lot. I no longer need the story to have a resolution simply because I've found a degree of resolution in my own life. Perhaps it's already been said, but could that not also be the reason Nigel and Chris's story is left open ended?
Hugs
Teddy
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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