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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Worthy of thought
Re: Choices  [message #37874 is a reply to message #37873] Sun, 29 October 2006 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Ah. I speak from the point of view of an atheist -- condemning a person after his or her death cannot mean anything more to me than a condemnation of his actions, for there is nothing left of him or her to condemn.

I do not regard such condemnation as damnation; damnation is an ultimately selfish act by those of the religious persuasion, to make themselves feel better at the expense of other people. It is bad enough when those people are alive and can defend themselves; it is even worse when they are dead, for they are tampering with their legacy.

David

[Updated on: Sun, 29 October 2006 14:39]

Re: Choices  [message #37875 is a reply to message #37872] Sun, 29 October 2006 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
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Messages: 13739



I also think it important that no-one comes here and feels condemned.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Choices  [message #37876 is a reply to message #37875] Sun, 29 October 2006 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



And what if some do?



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Definitely not the literary merits  [message #37877 is a reply to message #37871] Sun, 29 October 2006 14:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

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How would you know if someone committed the final act directly from something read here?



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Choices  [message #37878 is a reply to message #37875] Sun, 29 October 2006 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
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Messages: 3281



I think this is another question of semantics, like we have had in the past with argument versus discussion (which has led to a bit of confusion from time to time). If you would prefer I am happy not to use that word, but I ought to point out that even if I have used it in the past, I have never meant condemning the person himself in a pseudoreligious, damning sense. Only insofar as condemning a person's actions.

David
Re: Definitely not the literary merits  [message #37881 is a reply to message #37877] Sun, 29 October 2006 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kupuna is currently offline  kupuna

Really getting into it
Location: Norway
Registered: February 2005
Messages: 510



I think it's impossible to know, unless someone has been told explicitly. But it is a question which often haunts parents, other family members and friends for years after a suicide. Seldom for what they said or did, more often because of what they didn't say or do.

As for this place, I believe it is for most of us a place which gives us reasons for staying.
Re: A further chapter  [message #37883 is a reply to message #37860] Sun, 29 October 2006 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 484



I just finished an email conversation with one of the readers of the story and this thread. In that conversation I expressed that very thought, that from a literary standpoint it may be a real challenge to add anything that doesn't fall into the catagory of hum-drum.

I suppose in a way, ending it where I did turned out to be a bit problematic when adding a page or two could have brought more resolution while not distracting from the power of the story. Something for me to think about I suppose.

Hugs,

Teddy



“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: A further chapter  [message #37886 is a reply to message #37883] Sun, 29 October 2006 18:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Messages: 13739



if the few more pages turn out to be good (your call) we can add an epilogue



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Choices  [message #37889 is a reply to message #37876] Sun, 29 October 2006 18:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
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Messages: 13739



If some do then we have not been wise enough in our posts. We have not removed condemnation from our posts. If they read condemnation where none exists we cannot correct that.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Choices  [message #37891 is a reply to message #37889] Sun, 29 October 2006 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
marc is currently offline  marc

Needs to get a life!

Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729



Well, that is the conundrum....

To walk through life throwing rose pettals and blowing kisses to the masses is not to address real problems. Although you as well as some others postulate on the "safeness" of this place it is not wrong to point out the pitfalls....



Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
Re: Choices  [message #37894 is a reply to message #37891] Sun, 29 October 2006 20:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Marc wrote:
> To walk through life throwing rose pettals and blowing kisses to the masses is not to address real problems.

I don't think I have ever done that. It's really rather an offenseive suggestion, and also, if you feel strongly about that, worthy of a different thread. You have something in your mind so perhaps you might like to expand on it, but most definitely outside this thread.

>...it is not wrong to point out the pitfalls....

No, of course it is not. Equally it is not helpful to overemphasise them. No-one here can claim to do more than help those who wish to be helped. Of those, over the years, who have come here or to similar places, many have found sufficient hope to be able to continue and prosper in their lives. Some were in need of friendship, others in need of more. They came here for their own reasons and left for their own reasons.

As a virtual place it is as safe as I can make it, and as safe as any of the participants allow it to be.

But this thread is also not the thread to discuss it in. Again, since I know you feel strongly, if you feel strongly enough then start another thread about it.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
This time I feel not reluctance but obligation.  [message #37935 is a reply to message #37832] Mon, 30 October 2006 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



I am disappointed - even appalled - by some of the comments posted within the last 24 hours.

Woolly evasions do not alter the manifest fact that this is a story about a teenage boy whose despair became so great that he, to all appearances successfully, took his own life. It is told from a point of view which is entirely sympathetic to his feelings of despair. If read by a boy already contemplating suicide it can only appear as an endorsement of that solution rather than an encouragement to seek some other solution.

Timmy, I have the greatest admiration for your past achievements in helping and guiding young gays, but your comments about respecting the individual's choice to die amaze and disappoint me. You refer to the two partners who were former posters; that is both misleading and irrelevant. The two individuals were not only adults, but relatively mature adults. Stephen died because he could not face a future without Robert - they had been together for 20 years. Whilst I do not think that Stephen made the right choice, he was in control of his own destiny.

The situation here is entirely different - a teenage boy unloved by his parents and tormented by the realisation that he is gay is NOT in control of his own destiny - it is imposed upon him by external influences, many of which he has no power to change. The ONLY moral course in this situation is to provide him with as much support, encouragement - yes, even love - as can be transmitted across the web. The tacit admission that in such circumstances suicide is an acceptable solution is wrong, immoral and dangerous. Young gays have visited this site for years, many without participating in the forum, but we know from those who have participated what a positive effect the site had upon them. It has indeed been a place of safety and support. To leave the story in its present form, without even an epilogue making it clear that Jordan survived and regretted his attempted suicide, is DANGEROUS. That, I would submit, is a rational conclusion, which can only be overturned by psychiatric evidence - the expression of a contrary opinion does not remove that danger. Remember, a boy already contemplating suicide is already in a heightened emotional state and is quite possibly incapable of distancing himself from the story he reads.

If it should happen, could you live with the knowledge that this site had encouraged a vulnerable teen to take that last, irreversible step? Indeed, can you live with the knowledge that it MIGHT happen?

At the very least, an epilogue is essential - and, let's face it, as Jordan is to some extent a reflection of Teddy's own experience, that epilogue would simply be reflecting the truth.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Cossie, you are under a serious misapprehension  [message #37936 is a reply to message #37935] Mon, 30 October 2006 01:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Cossie said,
>Woolly evasions do not alter the manifest fact that this is a story about a teenage boy whose despair became so great that he, to all appearances successfully, took his own life.

This is apparently the source of the problem. I think you must have skimmed over the text without reading it properly. The boy does not take his own life; he decides at the last moment not to, but not before he has placed a suicide note in his outbox, which is presumably sent after he goes to sleep (as in, normal, natural sleep from which he will wake).

David
In case you do not feel prepared to read the story in full  [message #37937 is a reply to message #37936] Mon, 30 October 2006 01:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



From the end of the story:

"To [kill himself] would be the ultimate act of self-centeredness, which was the very trait he hated so much in his parents. He would not give them the satisfaction of knowing they had broken him."
...
"He shuddered to think how close he'd come to ending it all."
...
"His mind turned to his relationship with his parents. Things would be different from now on, he decided. There was one thing for certain. Tomorrow morning he was putting them on notice that he would tolerate no more abuse."
...
"[H]e was thankful he'd come to his senses."
...
"He glanced sleepily at the bottle on the nightstand and was thankful it still contained all of its contents. Tomorrow would be a better day."

David
Sorry, but I'm not.  [message #37938 is a reply to message #37936] Mon, 30 October 2006 01:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



After a long build up validating Jordan's choice, a one-liner postponing final action until tomorrow does not have anything like sufficient impact to undo the impression previously created, especially in the mind of someone already emotionally stressed and depressed. Jordan may have drifted off into natural sleep, but hazy thoughts of tomorrow being a better day have little impact upon what has gone before.

To a potential suicide, 99% of the story is encouragement, unless there is a clear and unequivocal revelation that Jordan found an acceptable future.

In any event, the main thrust of my post was an objection to the implication that it could EVER be right to take the view that suicide was a valid choice for a teenage boy.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
I still think you were  [message #37944 is a reply to message #37938] Mon, 30 October 2006 02:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Cossie,

Before you read the rest of this email, I ought to point out that I am not arguing with you because I think your original post has no basis; I am arguing with you solely because it sounded very much to me as if you had missed the point of the story. Despite your response, I still maintain that it does sound that way, and your response overlooks the fact that that was the only thing I was finding fault with.

In your response, you say:
>a one-liner postponing final action until tomorrow does not have anything like sufficient impact to undo the impression previously created

1. It is not a one-liner. The story turns at around the line "It was a good memory", maybe a couple of paragraphs before, and from then on is positive. This might not be as great as you would like, but it is not nearly as small as 1%, as you suggest: it is more like 15%. It might not have enough impact to undo the impression created as far as you, or a hypothetical potential suicide, are concerned -- I have no problem believing that -- but I can truthfully say that it did for me, to my relief.

2. You have not acknowledged the inaccuracy of "this is a story about a teenage boy whose despair became so great that he, to all appearances successfully, took his own life." What he does afterwards might be ambiguous, and since nothing has changed except his resolve the situation might be more tenuous than it appears, there is nothing to suggest that he actually kills himself "to all appearances successfully". Nor does the story depict an attempted suicide (as you call it later in the same post) for he never actually gets to that stage, though he does come very close.

I agree with you that the story is potentially dangerous if read by the wrong person, for it argues in both directions. You can argue that with Timmy if you wish. But you were sufficiently ambiguous in your first post tonight to suggest to me that you had missed the point of the story, and I think you ought to acknowledge that. I do not contest "the main thrust of [your] post".

David

[Updated on: Mon, 30 October 2006 02:51]

I'm not attacking you, Deeej ...  [message #37946 is a reply to message #37944] Mon, 30 October 2006 02:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
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Messages: 1699



... just the principle.

I deliberately adopted my stance in the hope of emphasising that emotion is very powerful, and can overwhelm a last-minute retraction.

Young guys contemplating suicide are both emotional and depressed - and I'm well aware, as someone who has successfully battled with both emotion and depression for years, that both emotion and depression can be fed by the first half of a story - the second half may never be read.

It is simply unrealistic to expect potential suicides to take a rational view - in their minds emotion has already displaced both logic and reason.

Hence my considered and thoughtful conclusion that this story, in its present form, is dangerous. Its impact cannot be measured by the parameters of logic and reason.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
I did not think you were  [message #37948 is a reply to message #37946] Mon, 30 October 2006 03:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Almost any story is dangerous to someone in a suicidally depressed state, if they read only the unhappy parts and not the positive conclusion. "A good man triumphing over adversity" is a universal theme, but for it to work that man has to encounter hardship and self-doubt. The story of Christ's resurrection is a horribly depressing one if you stop reading at the point that he is on the cross, and ignore his resurrection and assumption into heaven.

>Hence my considered and thoughtful conclusion that this story, in its present form, is dangerous. Its impact cannot be measured by the parameters of logic and reason.

Dangerous, to certain people in certain, very specific situations, of course. But not dangerous on the same level as a work which does not change its outlook by the end, or one which deliberately tries to propel someone to suicide. And not substantially more dangerous than any other work of fiction that addresses important, and potentially unpleasant, issues.

Anyway, all this is beside the point. You still haven't acknowledged that I was hoping to gain some clarification on the meaning of a few words from your original post, which suggested to me that you had missed the point of the story...

David
Re: Definitely not the literary merits  [message #37950 is a reply to message #37881] Mon, 30 October 2006 03:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian1407a is currently offline  Brian1407a

On fire!
Location: USA
Registered: December 2005
Messages: 1104



My mom is one of those people who do only what is necessary so no-one can call her a bad parent. These parents do exist and it playes on the mind of the child. After 2 attempts, my mom just thinks Im nuts. It was just teen angst, problems and it will go away in time. In other words for my mom its just ragging hormones, Im a sissy and cant cope with life. My mother is cold and unloving and I dont think she is ever going to change. It took a lot for me to realize I wasnt some sick pervert, some abomination. Coming here to this MB is the best thing ever in my life. I know you guys have heard that befor and I still stand by it. Here I can vent, pitch a fit, joke, talk about cute guys, make friends and family. There are alternatives to suicide. Unfortunately most of them involve realizing you have to get away from the parents influence. Getting help from organizations. I realize now that suicide insnt the answer. I just have to bide my time. I dispise my mom and know that the day is coming soon when I will be free to go and go I will. Im going to go to the ones who have given me support and made my life have meaning, the ones who told me Im not alone.



I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........

Affirmation........Savage Garden
And, Brian ...  [message #37953 is a reply to message #37950] Mon, 30 October 2006 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



... I know I speak for the rest of your friends when I promise you that you'll be welcomed for the wonderful guy that you are.

I know we've been through this before, but I find it impossible to understand how your family can't appreciate what a multi-talented, thoughtful and understanding guy you are. Or maybe I do understand, and I'm just so glad that you found your friends here in time to change your life.

No-one could ever have as much pride in a grandson as I have in you.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Sorry, please be explicit about the words you mean.  [message #37954 is a reply to message #37948] Mon, 30 October 2006 04:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



I've already explained that I deliberately tried to react as an emotional, potentially suicidal teen might have reacted.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Re: And, Brian ...  [message #37955 is a reply to message #37953] Mon, 30 October 2006 05:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jedediah is currently offline  Jedediah

Likes it here
Location: Made in NZ
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 170



Amen to that. You're a star, Brian. Don't ever doubt it. As a matter of fact - "You are a Child of the Universe . . ." (you know how it goes)

However, don't be too hard on your mum. Very, very few set out to be a bad parent. Most people do their best with what they've got - sometimes not a lot. Unless there's a life-changing experience, most of us parent the way we were raised.

Resentments only hurt the ones who carry them. I had crap parents too, but I survived.

Cheers.



E Te Atua tukuna mai ki au te Mauri tauki te tango i nga mea
Re: Definitely not the literary merits  [message #37957 is a reply to message #37950] Mon, 30 October 2006 06:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aussie is currently offline  Aussie

Really getting into it

Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475



Just like to back up what Cossie And Jedediah are saying here Brian. I in no way doubt what you say about your Mum because I am not in your shoes.
Maybe it might help you to understand her better if you examine what kind of crap she has gone through in her life.
You may well find in time that she'll be devastated when you leave and cut her out of your life. I would just like to believe that you will grow closer from a distance perhaps but you are entitled to disagree and everyone here will back up your decision.

Jedediah can you explain what you mean by a "child of the universe"
I don't disagree with you but am inquisitive to hear what the interpretation is.

Timmy I have to say I am taken aback by your belief that suicide is ok provided it doesn't affect anyone. It's hard for me to imagine how the suicide of a teenager wouldn't affect a lot of people. As Brian has said the ripples go outwards.
Perhaps its ok for someone with a terminal illness and there is no hope but that's not what we are talking about here.

Aussie
Re: This time I feel not reluctance but obligation.  [message #37958 is a reply to message #37935] Mon, 30 October 2006 06:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 484



Cossie,

I don't know what story you read, but it was definitely not the one which was posted.

Jordan did not take his own life. Before the story was over he looked with relief at the bottle of pills still on the night stand. He was glad he had not chosen suicide. He was frightened at how close he had come but was looking forward to a full life, and was making plans as to what he would do with his life. He went to sleep ehausted, but very much alive.

Teddy



“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: Sorry, but I'm not.  [message #37959 is a reply to message #37938] Mon, 30 October 2006 06:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 484



Cossie,

The beginning of Jordan's turn around in thinking comes 6 pages, 30 paragraphs, 1,709 words prior to the end of the story. That constitutes roughly 1/3rd of the total story, and hardly qualifies as a one liner. Smile

You are welcome to your opinions concerning this story. I have no objection to them and even respect them. However, if you are going to make an argument, it would probably be better to make it accurately. It'll bolster your arguement substantially.

Teddy

[Updated on: Mon, 30 October 2006 06:58]




“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: Definitely not the literary merits  [message #37961 is a reply to message #37957] Mon, 30 October 2006 07:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



i have not said it is ok. Truly I have not. I have simply said that it is a decision I must respect.

I hate it. I loathe even the idea of anyone who is not terminally ill and suffering taking their own life. It is not OK at all. But I respect it. I hate especially a child in dspair taking their own life because they have not found the right people to listen to them, because they have not though beyond removing the hurt they feel. I hate it the more because it is not necessary.

But I will not condemn anyone who does it because I do not want to heap another condemnation upon their heads. I do not like it. I never want it to happen. I hate the act. I will be violently angry at anyone I know who does it. But I do respect it.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Unfortunately you read what you expected, not what was there  [message #37962 is a reply to message #37935] Mon, 30 October 2006 07:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Jordan did not die. The tablets were unconsumed. He slept. "He glanced sleepily at the bottle on the nightstand and was thankful it still contained all of its contents. Tomorrow would be a better day."

Stephen and Robert were as much teenagers as any person of that age. No-one actualloy feels as though they are an adult.

My attitude to suicide is unchanged. I have stated it clealy and often. I absolutely hate it except where the person is terminally ill and sufering. I simply respect an individual's choice.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Footer  [message #37963 is a reply to message #37959] Mon, 30 October 2006 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



In view of what appears to be the scope for misunderstadning, I have added to the footer which I placed oin the story. It says currently:

"If you have been afected by any aspect of this story, ranging from Jordan's relationship with his parents to his preparations for suicide prior to realising that it was not a valid "solution" to his issues, and it is hard not to be affected by it, you may like to visit the site forum where others like you have given some of their thoughts on the subject matter. You may fnd these thoughts helpful, you may need someone to talk to, you may have thoughts of your own to share with us all. You are welcome there. Please simply remember that we don't discuss the literary merits or demerits of a story, we simply look at the subjects raised and the thoughts they provoke"

This links to the top post of this thread. I expect I can strengthen it if anyone feels it appropriate. It's been there, slightly weaker, since yesterday, or possibly Saturday.

Neither Teddy nor I expected this tale to get no reaction. The previous version was a "better" story in some ways, but left no hope for the future. The previous ending had no future. This story has a future for Jordan. Not necessarily a wonderful prospect immediately. His parents are the kind that send kids to "cure camp", probably. So he has to be wise. He has started to grow up, and has started to become wise.

People in a black despair will read Peter Pan ("Death would be a very big adventure") and see it as a call to suicide for children everywhere. People who are currently calm and thinking clearly would read the original ending and see it as a bleak tale wholly against suicide. That does not mean that Peter Pan should never have been published, nor does it mean that this tale should not either.

And, yes. I have been to that edge. I was in despair. I cycled home from school after being outed with tears streaming down my face thinking "I will go under the wheels of the next truck". No note, just an 'accident'. I just didn't do it.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
To clear this up  [message #37982 is a reply to message #37954] Mon, 30 October 2006 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Given that you are normally so calm, collected, and argue so intelligently, I am mystified why you have consistently failed to answer the one and only thing I was querying about. Just because I posted another reply does not mean that my previous replies and questions are now redundant. I thought you might have been able to go back and look at them.

You said,
>"Woolly evasions do not alter the manifest fact that this is a story about a teenage boy whose despair became so great that he, to all appearances successfully, took his own life."

This is wrong, for reasons I have already described. Surely I don't need to describe them again? Can you not read back? Don't worry, I'll cut and paste my own words: 'What he does afterwards might be ambiguous, and since nothing has changed except his resolve the situation might be more tenuous than it appears, but there is nothing to suggest that he actually kills himself "to all appearances successfully".' Hence it sounds very much like you have misread the story. Even if you are going to maintain despite the evidence that this is opinion (quite how that would work, I do not know) you should have not used the words "manifest fact", for it is not.

You went on to say,
>"It is told from a point of view which is entirely sympathetic to his feelings of despair."

Not "entirely", no. To some extent, maybe, but that is not what you said in the original instance.

And,
>"If read by a boy already contemplating suicide it can only appear as an endorsement of that solution rather than an encouragement to seek some other solution."

"Only"? In my case, I read it entirely differently. I have been depressed in the past (though not suicidal, I will grant you that) and indeed I was feeling mildly depressed at the point I read it. It did not sound anything like an endorsement of that situation to me. I do not believe you hold a monopoly on the feelings of depressed boys.

These two quotes would hold true, however, if the story did portray an actual suicide, as you appeared to believe in the first quotation (the "manifest fact" one). Therefore the obvious conclusion is the same: that you have failed to read or appreciate the end of the story.

>"To leave the story in its present form, without even an epilogue making it clear that Jordan survived and regretted his attempted suicide, is DANGEROUS."

Again, this sounds as if you think the story portrays an attempted suicide, which it does not. It would be quite a leap to assume that he went on to go through with it the next day without any evidence to imply that. And he is already regretting it by the end of the story, so such an epilogue would be redundant.

I do not know why you cannot acknowledge that you were incorrect in the first place. It is irrelevant whether that was or was not the main point of your post. I am sure you would expect me to acknowledge if I posted something so clearly wrong, so I find it severely hypocritical of you not to hold yourself to the same standards.

David

P.S. Both Timmy and Teddy, from their comments, are bemused by your original post because of its apparent gross inaccuracy; it's not just me barking up the wrong tree. At the very least it must mean that the post lacks your usual coherence.

[Updated on: Mon, 30 October 2006 19:54]

Re: Definitely not the literary merits  [message #38011 is a reply to message #37957] Mon, 30 October 2006 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jedediah is currently offline  Jedediah

Likes it here
Location: Made in NZ
Registered: March 2006
Messages: 170



http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/desiderata.html

Cheers Aussie



E Te Atua tukuna mai ki au te Mauri tauki te tango i nga mea
Your situation  [message #38012 is a reply to message #37950] Mon, 30 October 2006 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Brian,

I very much hope that your mother and you will be able to understand each other better as you get older, even if it does not lead to reconciliation.

I look forward to the day when you are free to do as you wish. I have no doubt that you will achieve something amazing.

Hugs,

David
I was hoping for that response.  [message #38014 is a reply to message #37962] Mon, 30 October 2006 20:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



That's the whole point. If I could be left with the wrong impression, anyone could. Now that's established, I can say that I did originally misread the piece, though I read it twice more after that and realised that my first impression was wrong. When I first read the story, I was tired and fairly emotional because of something else I had read. Though I am normally an analytical reader, I was superficial this time. I was in precisely the frame of mind in which the subject matter could tip the emotions of someone already feeling suicidal.

If a story about teen suicide is presented to an audience which is likely to include potentially suicidal teens - and that is the case here - the positive alternative needs to be presented much more powerfully; subtlety is fine for discering adults without emotional involvement, but for those more vulnerable it is DANGEROUS. I'd have no quarrel with the story if it continued to demonstrate a positive outcome; the footnote is better than nothing, but an integral continuation of the story would be much more effective.

Robert and Stephen were in their early 40s and had been together for over 20 years - and Stephen's sense of loss after Robert was killed was immense - though support was available, not least from Robert's family. He died because he could not deal with the loss of love, not because he could not find it. I cannot see any logical basis for arguing that Stephen's situation sheds any light whatsoever upon the mental state of an emotionally-abused teenager at the mercy of parents who show no sign of love or understanding.

Finally, I continue to be appalled by the view expressed in the final paragraph of your post. I have no quarrel with the suicide of those who are terminally ill and who choose a controlled departure to a brief but uncertain period of pain and anguish. Its a stark but a rational choice. As regards suicide by other adults, it is surely wrong to regard it as a valid choice when it is almost always associated with mental illness (depression being the most common) which is in itself correctable with treatment. I'd argue that adult suicide almost always reflects a failure by society to provide adequate understanding and support. But when we consider young people still under the control of their parents, I'd argue that suicide is NEVER a valid choice, nor should it be expressed as such.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
Re: Definitely not the literary merits  [message #38016 is a reply to message #37961] Mon, 30 October 2006 21:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aussie is currently offline  Aussie

Really getting into it

Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475



Timmy said
>But I will not condemn anyone who does it because I do not want to heap another condemnation upon their heads. I do not like it. I never want it to happen. I hate the act. I will be violently angry at anyone I know who does it. But I do respect it.

I am happy with your statement to the point of respecting their decision.
I can only do that when there is terminal illness involved and no hope for the future.

I read the story through once and I too probably read into it what I was expecting. I had to go back and read the end about 4 times to see what the outcome really was and even then wasn't convinced. So I guess on that score I agree with Cossie that someone in an emotional state may read the wrong ending too.
Aussie
Re: Definitely not the literary merits  [message #38017 is a reply to message #38011] Mon, 30 October 2006 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aussie is currently offline  Aussie

Really getting into it

Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475



Thanks Jedediah, I did a google on it and found that was where it came from.
The reason I asked was I thought it may have something to do with Indigo Children.

Aussie
Re: Definitely not the literary merits  [message #38029 is a reply to message #38016] Mon, 30 October 2006 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian1407a is currently offline  Brian1407a

On fire!
Location: USA
Registered: December 2005
Messages: 1104



Sometimes, things look so bad there seems to be no other way out. Imagine living in the middle of the Bible belt and listening to the rants and raves of the ministers. Having a mother who is only interested in appearances. Imagine the time when you realized you were gay and you knew what was going to happen if anyone found out. Who does a 12 year old boy turn to. Do you think he knows the number to a help line. He knows there are others like him but they are all bad and damned to hell. Everytime I look at the scares on my wrist, it reminds me of how despirately I didnt want to be gay. Thank goodness for the internet. Think of all the boys who could have found some comfort if it had been around earlier. The internet gave me other options. Timmy said he had respect for the action but that action is taken because there doesnt seem to be any hope. I have felt that terrible loneliness, being in a crowd but still being alone, wanting someone to love you and you can love in return. I dont mean sex, I mean a companion you can tell your darkest secreats to and know they are safe. I know the feeling of being in a crowded room and being all by yourself. That is the most miserable feeling in the world. What Jordan felt, we have all felt at one point in life. Some of us servive, some dont.



I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........

Affirmation........Savage Garden
Re: I was hoping for that response.  [message #38032 is a reply to message #38014] Mon, 30 October 2006 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I think we may be getting tied up in semantics.

I am able to view suicide as unwelcome, and something I dislike intensely.

I am able to respect the choice someone makes despite hating the outcome and feeling it to be wholly wrong.

What I cannot do is to make someone who has decided to head for death feel, should they read anything I have written about it (unlikely), any worse than they do already by condemning them for what they are definitely going to do. It is a paradox that I totally hate the act, but have no desire to make someone who is about to carry it through feel that they are hated along with it. I believe them to be wrong, but that is all.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Not semantics; concepts, perhaps?  [message #38054 is a reply to message #38032] Tue, 31 October 2006 02:52 Go to previous message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



Though I see myself as an agnostic rather than an atheist, I agree with Deeej entirely that there is no ethical basis for attaching blame to a suicide victim - and I use the word 'victim' advisedly, because that is what they are. Indeed, I see no basis for blame of any kind, be it religious or secular.

Nevertheless, I believe that suicide (other than in the case of terminal illness) is ALWAYS wrong. The traditional verdict reached in an English Coroner's Court used to be 'Suicide while the balance of the mind was disturbed.' It sounds a bit archaic nowadays, but it hits the nail on the head, because with very few exceptions the mind of a suicide victim IS disturbed. He or she is ill (as I've already suggested, depression is the most usual illness) and the suicidal impulse is a direct consequence of that illness.

The blame attaches to society, not to the individual. In the adult situation, it may lie with the various care services because financial constraints result in superficial treatment. I'm not certain of the balance of failures leading to teen suicides, because the rate in the USA is pro rata very much higher than in the UK, but - in the end - it happens because those involved in education and youth services have failed to detect the signs of anguish. More importantly, they may have failed to ensure that students are provided with access to appropriate and pro-active counselling in an entirely confidential setting - and not only to provide it but to make sure that every student knows that the service is available and dependable. That, of course, costs money.

I have nothing to say to a suicide who is already dead; it's too late, and my words would be unheard. I certainly wouldn't blame the victim. I would be angry - very angry - but my anger would be directed towards those who could have made a difference but failed to do so. My words are directed exclusively to the living - and to them I say that (apart from the proviso above) suicide is ALWAYS the wrong answer. Seek help. Demand help. Kick ass if help isn't immediately forthcoming. It is NOT your fault - it's OUR fault for letting you down. With help, you CAN rebuild your life, however badly it has been damaged.

Hate and condemnation do not enter into my thinking. But I cannot 'respect the choice' of a potential suicide who is still alive, because it is the wrong choice - and it is a choice which is confronted at a time when psychological pressures make rational choices impossible.

I know he won't mind my using him as an example, but Brian - who even now is only 16 - came very close to suicide on two occasions because his life had become intolerable and he saw no hope for the future. He found this place a year or so ago, and here he discovered that he DID have a future; he just needed a strategy to cope with the present for a couple more years. The friendships he has formed here have given him the necessary strength, despite a home situation which has not improved. Recently, some other well-meaning posters have been conciliatory, but his family situation is way beyond any realistic hope of reconciliation. This little community provided hope and, in a very real way, a substitute family. Hope is what we should all, always, try to provide. And it seems to me that hope is inconsistent with any suggestion that the choice of suicide remains on the table.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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