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http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html
This has been debated before but it still astonishes me that so many self-appointed and self-centered bigots continue to attract large crowds of followers, despite these men's obvious stupidity and lack of moral standards. We can express our disgust as much as we want, and feel sorry for Ted Haggard's wife and children, but there seems to be little reason to believe that the charade won't go on.
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I think the thing that gets me about all this is not the fact that these guys do what they do, but that they set themselves above humanity by their hautyness (sp) in denouncing the very thing they themselves are doing. It's almost as if they can tell everyone else it's wrong, they can somehow fix themselves. Did they ever hear the saying "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"?
Will they ever learn? I doubt it.
Teddy
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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Will they ever learn? I doubt it.
I doubt it, too, but what about the thousands of ordinary people who rally around Haggard and treat him like he's both a prophet and a popstar? Have they given up their own personal authority and their ability to think and act critically?
When Richard Dawkins of the Oxford University interviews Haggard (YouTube), and compares Haggard's show with the Nazi German Nuremberg rallies, Ted Haggard reveals his absolute ignorance, and apparently doesn't even recognize the name Joseph Goebbels. Don't people in the US of A see the obvious similarities between people like Haggard and Goebbels?
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If you're a stupid person and you wish to avoid thinking for yourself by betting your entire philosophy on one person, then God must seem like a good bet. In a religious country like America, no-one important is ever going to tell you you're point-blank wrong for fear of making himself unpopular. At best, he will start to point out logical inaccuracies, matters of scientific fact; the interpretation will be left up to you. Such interpretation takes time and effort. Much easier to rely on one of your "leaders" to interpret it for you; and if he says, with an insufferably smug and all-knowing smile, "Don't worry -- they don't understand what you and I do," you will accept his word without question. Truth does not enter into it. For you have already invested so much in his word that believing it one more time would mean backing down, changing faith, upsetting the status quo, your social position, your state of mind. Why bother to think when you can be told what to think?
David
[Updated on: Sun, 05 November 2006 01:38] |
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... in simple terms I see it this way.
The problem is not restricted to the United States, but nowhere else is it as widespread or - in terms of political influence - more dangerous. I think its roots are to be found in the American Constitution.
For very obvious reasons, the founding fathers of the United States were obsessed with the concepts of liberty and self-regulation. I am not impugning their integrity or doubting their intentions, but they seem to have worked on the assumption that every United States subject would be possessed of similar integrity. That was alarmingly naive and - with the benefit of hindsight - just plain wrong!
Electing local law officers seems a fine idea at first view, but at best it interferes with justice because - at least in small-town America - the law officers and District Judges are likely to be acquainted with those with whom they deal, and that invites bias. At worst, if a wealthy individual is involved, it invites corruption. Small, independent police forces are in purely economic terms inefficient and unsuited to the development of specialist skills. I won't labour the point, but the principle is surely obvious; the theory does not convert to effective practice.
So it is with the separation of Religion and Government. The intention was to prevent religious persecution - a wholly understandable and admirable objective. But embodying the principle in the core of the Constitution rather than in ancillary law gave a positive impetus to those seeking to use religion to develop their own power-base. No other nominally Christian country has seen anything approaching the level of fragmentation experienced in the United States. Sectarian fragmentation is just as inefficient as small-town policing; it simply creates ever more opportunities for minor religious leaders to become big fish in their own small pools. With such power comes influence - and, as no emotions are stronger than fear and hate, the drift to fundamentalism becomes inevitable.
People follow such leaders because they have been indoctrinated since childhood to do so - and, as in Nazi Germany or in the fundamentalist Muslim states, indoctrination suppresses the ability to make an intelligent and independent assessment. It obviously never occurs to the followers of Fred Phelps and his ilk that by condemning others they are rejecting the specific exhortation of Christ at Matthew VII:1 - Judge not, that ye be not judged. Members of fundamentalist congregations will of course deny the suggestion, but in psychological terms they are victims of a kind of mass hysteria. Unfortunately, they are also victims of financial manipulation, so that those in power become rich and exert political influence - another example of word-blindness, because they cannot understand the concept that Religion and Government are constitutionally independent OF EACH OTHER - it was always intended to be a two-way process!
I hope that our American posters accept that I am not attacking the United States as such; the problems and processes to which I refer are, in the main, limited to rural and small-town communities - large, cosmopolitan societies such as those found in the industrial North-East and on the West Coast are much closer to the international norm. But if you disagree with me, feel free to fight back!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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There are many rogues and charlatans whose stage presence makes them "wonderful" and people to be followed, even blindly. There are many good people who have the same attributes. How can we determine, when we hitch our wagon to that horse, that the horse will not bolt?
A couple of thousand years ago a pretty decent bloke gave a speech on top of some mount or other. We imagine he had a pretty normal sex life, but it's never reported on, though a chap named Brown speculated recently about it.
Ignoring religion, there is the ex Janitor Anthony Robbins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Robbins) whose stage presence and "stuff" have made him rather wealthy.
The problem I have is the "holier than thou" people, not the fact that they indulge their sexual needs. And I have problems when they castigate other people for things that they do themselves.
[Updated on: Sun, 05 November 2006 09:04]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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The problem I have is the "holier than thou" people, not the fact that they indulge their sexual needs.
I agree, as long as there are no victims except themselves. But there often are, like their families.
And I have problems when they castigate other people for things that they do themselves.
And while they seem to preach the gospel of God's love, they always put themselves in the centre of attention, with direct lines to God and the White House, and with an endless greed for power, political influence and money. Everything which 'the bloke on top of the mountain' warned against.
I'm not saying that the Americans are the only people whose naivety and complacency prevent them from acting morally. Nuremberg is in the centre of Europe and Hitler was admired and celebrated not only in Germany and Austria.
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Geeez I need to get to bed so I can get up and go to work tonight, but again I just can’t help it.
The one thought that occurs to me is that we all need to take care, myself included cuz as far as I can see we all to some extent are guilty of the illusory, none of us wants to expose the nasty bits, human nature to want to appear at least to the largest extent good and righteous. I would go so far as to say most of us have blinders on as far as the not so glorifying stuff goes.
I can no fault though with most of the observations. I know I sure don’t want a fight with cossie or anyone else for that matter, but the intent of what the founders penned all those many years ago is a matter of great debate over here, and I think his interpretation falls on the side of the religious folk. The religious if our main players could be considered religious, leanings for appearance at least tended toward the Abrahamic, but I would bet their philosophies went a bit farther a field and it had less to do with persecution of any particular religious belief, more so keep one religion from being dominant and persecutory. As I say a mater of debate to this day over here.
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It is a human frailty, to want to be led. A charismatic leader attracts followers.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Me. I will tell him.
"Being gay is OK. Just relax and be yourself"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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If you haven't already, I recommend watching a section from a documentary by Richard Dawkins (as suggested by Sailor). Here's a Youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0
This man is a seriously nasty, smug, self-satisfied piece of work and really not deserving of anyone's support. I can't imagine how asking him to relax and be himself could possibly make him any better.
David
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>I just wonder - is anyone going to tell him that being gay is ok?
I doubt seriously that it will do any good!
Teddy
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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This unpleasing person has gone through his life hating himself. In hating himself he has allowed that hate to pour onto other people. He has preached love and practised hate.
That does not mean one needs to forgive him, he's a jerk. But one can see where he is coming from.
Remember, this giy was brought up in a "religious environment". OK, he created a church to make a profit (Or to work for the lord's needs or some such rubbish) like so many other evangelical jerks, but he was tainted by the way he was raised. "Gay is bad" will have been th emantra all his life, and he will have felt afraid of hell and damnation.
No wonder he hates gay people.
So let's just hope that he can leanr that he is ok
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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So let's just hope that he can learn that he is ok
and my dream is that he'll start telling other gay people that they are ok, too, and that God loves them.
Probably it's just wishful thinking..
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I'm afraid he'll need a lot of help to put the religious trauma right. Even so, a message frok anyone gay to him letting him know that being gay is ok can do no harm at all.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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