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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well, trust as you say, IS a thing earned.... Trust, being something earned therefore can not be implied as bestowed solely due to ones presence.
IIf I am expected to earn trust then I also must expect others to do the same.
Have I ever believed this to be "a place of safety"..... not for a second... Safe places are never found on the internet. The best one can hope to achieve is a place that is basely reasonable but definately not "safe".
True, I don't have to post here.... But then, neither does anyone else.
I am not trying to deflect any blame... If you see it that way then I think you should aim for some clarification on the matter before just as you expect from me.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I think it is fair to ask for that reassurance. To put the request into perspective, of course, this is a public forum. Any random sranger could make that connection and take a foolish action. But yes, I think that the reassurance you ask for is called for here.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I said what I did as a result of the comment he made.......
Plain and simple.....
I saw an attempt at evasion of the issue.....
I understand that you mandate that I must understand it.....
That is what I understand.....
As far as trust, Actions are as much a validation of truse as not..... I never felt any trust from other posters here, yourself included...
All I ever felt was token inclusion....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Marc wrote:
> Well, trust as you say, IS a thing earned.... Trust, being something earned therefore can not be implied as bestowed solely due to ones presence.
True.
> IIf I am expected to earn trust then I also must expect others to do the same.
True.
> Have I ever believed this to be "a place of safety"..... not for a second... Safe places are never found on the internet. The best one can hope to achieve is a place that is basely reasonable but definately not "safe".
Perhaps true. But one can at least try to make a place that presents itself as a place of safety as safe as possible, out of, if nothing else, politeness: just as you would obey the "house rules" when visiting a friend's house even if you didn't agree with them.
> True, I don't have to post here.... But then, neither does anyone else.
True. But anyone is welcome to post here provided they keep to Timmy's rules.
> I am not trying to deflect any blame... If you see it that way then I think you should aim for some clarification on the matter before just as you expect from me.
Perhaps "deflect the blame" is the wrong choice of words. But comments such as "What more self emasculation will you demand?" certainly imply that you think Timmy is being too hard on you, and you are not as much to blame as he thinks you are. If you would like to clarify exactly what you meant by that, then please do.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Fair enough.....
NW, all here, visible and or not..... I offer my solem oath that I would never divulge anything said either in public or in private here or otherwise.
Now..... Can anyone here validate that no one else here will break that selfsame oath? Possibly as a method of extracting me from this forum...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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The entire world is not against you. But you have the unhappy knack of thinking that it is, and thus creating a self fulfilling prophecy.
Until that moment I trusted you. Now no-one trusts you. Look at NW's post, Look at Deej's.
What you feel about having been trusted in the past is what you feel. You have made sure that, currently, no-one trusts you at all.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc said,
>I never felt any trust from other posters here, yourself included... All I ever felt was token inclusion....
Presumably it has occurred to you that this might be because you are the way you are, not because of anything anyone else might have said or done? I do not know anyone else who has posted here who has not felt included for at least some of the time. You -- by virtue of your longevity here -- have as much or more reason to feel included as anyone else.
David
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I don't think that trust is an absolute - I think it's a question of "trust to do what"?
I *DO* still trust Marc in many ways: if he gives an assurance that he recognises the confidential* nature of some of the stuff here, I do absolutely trust him to stick to his word. Otherwise, of course, it would be pointless to ask for reassurance.
(*yes - I know it's a public forum, but I think my meaning is clear)
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Thank you Marc - that is most welcome. Your post crossed with one of mine - so it will be pretty clear that I absolutely accept your assurance.
I can't speak for anyone else (although none of the current regular posters have ever given me any cause for concern about this), but I will of course offer the same assurance to both you personally and to the group as a whole.
Can we consider this as shaking hands and making up ?
cheers
NW
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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But like Tim says.... No one trusts me at all.......
No one is an absolute..... At all is as well.....
Now the question is does people mistrust because they just plain mistrust...
Or because Tim has said that is it so????????
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No... Well yes.....
what I mean is I would prefer a hug...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I really hope no-one does anything on my say so.
I see above here in this thread you are already rebuilding that trust. I am wholly in favour of this and grateful for it.
I'm offering you the hug you deserve for it.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc, if I could reach through the screen and give you a hug, I would assuredly do so!
In the meantime, please accept a virtual one ... and if you ever visit the UK again, or I visit your part of the US, I will be glad to give you a hug - as I hug all my friends.
NW
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Thanks....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well, here many many people follow your lead....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I hope that simply means I am good at what I do, not that I have undue influence. Only they can judge.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I judge by what I see.....
Although most times I am villified for what I see..... I nevertheless see it.....
Undue influence..... That is a good turn of a phrase.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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so, what you see is undue influence. Or so I read from the post above.
However pretty much everyone who posts here has pretty fixed ideas about what is right and what is wrong. I don't see anyone susceptible to undue influence.
Villified for seeing undue influence? Well, of you are then you are. But that may well be because you are the only person seeing it.
If I have mis-stated what I think you are saying please tell me.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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A misstatment is hard to determine.....
But what I mean in the most base form is that you more than anyone here sway the tide of general opinion.....
By villification I mean that whenever I take a stand on an issue I have to dig in deep to vie against that sway....
This is where I get into trouble.... Trying to make my point against the onslaught.....
It will innevetibly be where I get into trouble the next time....
And.... As long as there are issues here that I am prone to entrench myself in to combat I will get into trouble....
It is my way.... it is who I am.... it is quite literally what I have had to use to keep myself alive.... to fight to the death for what I believe in.... I can not change.... I don't even think I want to change....
Now..... before David (or any one else) once again accuses me of making excuses and / or generalizing to make my position look inflatedly better than it generally is...... All I have to say is this.......
When you can look me in the eye and tell me you did the things I had to do to just keep alive.... Then you can comment on my situation.... Until then.... well, you know....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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We all have our own degree of awfulness to go through in life. Measuring each against each other is unproductive. We each survive 100% of our own adversity. Certainly what you went through was deeply unpleasant, which is an understatement.
Nonetheless this does not make you "who you are today", it made you who you were then. I use "you" now to mean "you who read this", not "you, Marc".
As for the tide of general opinion, maybe I sway it by the way I state it. I certainly intend no influence other than persuasive speech and well constructed words. Or maybe I have no effect at all.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Marc said,
>Now..... before David (or any one else) once again accuses me of making excuses and / or generalizing to make my position look inflatedly better than it generally is...... All I have to say is this.......
>When you can look me in the eye and tell me you did the things I had to do to just keep alive.... Then you can comment on my situation.... Until then.... well, you know....
Marc, no-one is for a moment belittling the experiences you have had in the past. The only thing we are asking you to bear in mind is that behaviour which is entirely appropriate or natural in one set of circumstances is not necessarily appropriate in all. I'm sure you appreciate that.
I would not dream of trying to tell you that you should have acted differently in your youth in response to the terrible things you experienced. I am -- many of us are -- very lucky not to have seen them first hand.
David
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I am the same person I was then..... A little older, true..... But the battle is the same..... Every day I spend some degree of time thinking about some aspect of things gone by..... Every day images of certain things haunt me..... Every night I wake myself from the night horrors....
No..... I am that person..... Only a bit older.....
I don't like who I am..... I never did..... So I see no reason why anyother person should..... All I can do is try..... Most times I fail..... I will fail again.....
This entire affair has drained me..... I have nothing left with which to fight anymore..... All I want now is a good long sleep.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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>It is my way.... it is who I am.... it is quite literally what I have had to use to keep myself alive.... to fight to the death for what I believe in.... I can not change.... I don't even think I want to change....
>....When you can look me in the eye and tell me you did the things I had to do to just keep alive.... Then you can comment on my situation.... Until then.... well, you know....
I've kept out of this fray till now. I hesitate to poke my nose in now, but think I will.
First of all, the above statements by Marc resonated with me. I'd like to send him a cyber-hug {{{{{Marc}}}}} I too have had those feelings and experienced some pretty mind-numbing treatment as a child and pre-teen. I know what it's like to feel the need to continue the fight, or die. I still do it at times to this day (just ask my boss. He must get so frustrated with me).
I realize everyone of us is in a different spot in life and the last thing I want to do is hold where I'm at up as an example of where I think everyone else ought to be, or what they should be doing. If, however, anyone here can gain from my experience, then good.
I have found that in my experience it is unnecessary to be trapped, stuck, or be defined by what has happened to me in the past. To do so would not be being honest with myself. It would not be living up to my fullest potential. I feel that for me it would be allowing the people who wronged me to rule my life 40 years on.
I only began coming to this realization within the last 4 years, so this is still something relatively new to me. What I've found during that time is that when I allow myself to love and trust, and accept love and trust in return, life is somehow more fulfilling and rewarding. The problem lies in the fact that to do so puts me in a vulnerable position, and Little Teddy vowed decades ago that he would never allow that to happen ever again. "Look what happened last time!" he reasoned. He vowed he would protect himself at all costs, which he did, and as a consequence he alienated potential friends, and destroyed much of what could have been good in his life.
To love is to be vulnerable. To treat others with concern and respect is to make oneself vulnerable, but the rewards far outweigh the risks. Over time I have learned that I do not have to place my selfworth on whether others accept or reject the love and trust I send their way. It is, after all, their "stuff" not mine should they reject the gift I offer. All I can do is make the offer. In taking that approach I am still able to protect myself while offering better things to those around me than I was ever able to in the past.
Just some thoughts. No well thought out arguements backed up by impecable logic. This is heart stuff I'm sharing, and I hope it is of benefit to someone. If not... Well, so be it.
Hugs all around,
Teddy
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I've tried reaching out.... I've even grasped a few hands.... But it never lasts.... I thought I had at least one friend here but over time I began to feel like a cause. Causes become boring and people move on to new causes.
But I understand what you are saying and thanks for saying it.
I have deicded I once again need something I have denied myself for several years and I am going back to what I know best.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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If you will only let people touch you you will see how many friends you have, not just here, but everywhere.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I have tried.... It doesn't work.... Perhaps I have too great an expectation as to what a friend is.... But then, how would I know....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Or do you mean.....
timmy wrote:
> If you will only let people touch you you will see how many friends you have, not just here, but everywhere.
Let new people in so the old ones that grow tired of me can more easily slip further away????
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I mean add to your portfolio of friends. What you may have failed to notice is that I remain your friend. It was not you as a person who upset me, but your behaviour.
The reason I am not talking to you online at present is that, though I have accepted your apology, I am still winding my anger down and do not yet trust myself to remain calm.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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A friend is someone who cares for you and about you sufficiently to do things with you and for you, and cares enough to stand by you right or wrong. But that also means saying clearly when you are wrong rather than destering you.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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timmy wrote:
> A friend is someone who cares for you and about you sufficiently to do things with you and for you, and cares enough to stand by you right or wrong.
But that also means saying clearly when you are wrong rather than destering you.
I don't understand this last sentence..........
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Sorry, was it the typo? "Deserting"
I mean a real friend cares sufficiently to say something, not to ignore it and walk away
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy. You are correct. I am Sorry for that. I apologize.
Gary
Navyone
:-[
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Thanks, gary. I've removed all except the apology to ensure Marc sees it. After I know he has I'll remove that as well to avoid anyone;s further embarrassment.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I have seen it but I don't know what it is I am seeing.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Anapology for the "go and eat worms" post
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Ahhh.... That....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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when an arguement springs up over a delicate issue like this, it would have been far better to have stopped, taken a deep breath, and asked exactly what was meant by any points that might be unclear.
That way we might have been spared a lot of bad feeling, heated comments and wrong interpretation.
Good communication is essential in all things we're told. Well then we ought to know better and improve our communication before diving off the highest board at the deepest end of the pool. It would have saved so much misery.
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