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Over the past few weeks the message board has for various reasons suffered a great deal of turbulence. Unfortunately all of us who have contributed to either a greater or lesser degree have either intentionally or inadvertently added to that turbulence, and I write this fully cognisant of my own contributions and do not deny that at times they are intentionally provocative while sometimes I am truly surprised at the heat they generate. It is a truth of nature that energy and heat are inextricably combined and one cause of heat is friction. Without heat nothing would happen; to put it another way without friction or heat this message board would not exist. We must therefore accept friction, or to put it another way differences of opinion and view.
Unfortunately it is quickly approaching crisis point.
Noticeable is the fact that much of this misunderstanding arises through badly read (misunderstood) or badly written English and for that reason alone it is of the utmost importance that contributors take care in reading and composing posts.
However, there is also another reason.
Here in this place of safety we have a community, a family. Some of us know each other personally; most know other contributors only through this board. However, at the centre of our community is the message board, and that is the important point. It reaches out to its contributors on the circumference and hopefully provides them with the comfort, mental stimulation or entertainment they seek, and in return they offer to the board. Once any part of the circumference attempts to occupy the centre, the equilibrium is destroyed. That is the danger that faces us for this turbulence has largely been caused by contributors attempting to place themselves at the centre. I hinted so much in a thread headed ‘Drama Queens’.
We must recognise the grand design of things. If one of us leaves, sad as that decision might be, he will be replaced by another. That is the way of the world. Death is compensated for by birth. The individual is not so important as we would like, perhaps sentimentally, to think. However, if the whole implodes, or self-destructs, that will be an irreplaceable loss.
This board is home to many disparate contributors. The umbrella is our ‘gayness’ or sympathy towards the gay world. Under that umbrella are serious ideas, political, social, international, from theists, atheists, agnostics and the uninterested; those with a humorous outlook on life, those with an earnest view. As in a family teasing and arguments will inevitably take place. That’s healthy, but with due regard to the board’s Netiqutte.
I earnestly ask for a period of reflection and perhaps for some modesty in a reduction in the view of our self-importance.
With hugs, as ever, my brothers
Nigel.
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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The only people who are important are those who read. In this group I include those who post as well, but the board is primarily to be read.
There is logic to this.
If you ask a question, it is read. Make the question easy to understand and your answer will be better
If you give an answer, it is read. Make your answer easy to understand and it gives better value
If you express an opinion, or a joke, or an observation, it is read. Make your meaning clear and offence will not easily be taken by accident.
We who post are unimportant, except that we cause, directly or indirectly others to read and others to write. But we all read. When you write something, write it for the reader, not the writer.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy wrote:
>We who post are unimportant<
If we who post do not post, there is no message board.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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The importance to a post is relevant to whomsoever decides it is important. But to post meerly for the reader.... I disagree there....
I have told you things.... I have added to them here.... In bits and pieces as they were proded out of me through one stimulous or another....
Did I disembowel myself for the unseen masses....
No.... Not a chance.... I did it for me because I had to at the time....
Oh....... nevermind.......
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Delightfully, yes.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Now I knew what I said would be found to be awkward. The difference is a global difference.
When you or I post something of ourselves, it is vitally important to us at the time we post. Our words are important to us. Our needs when posting are important to us. And having posted we hope very kuch that one or more readers will service our needs by answering, ideally with information that we will value
But we are not important. It is our words that carry whatever weight they carry. And that weight is, as you say, different in different cases.
Because the board is a public forum each reader weighs the words and their importance differently. But they read. And that is important. How else woudl we ever get new people posting?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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It is the "WE are not important" thst feels like cold air blasting across an exposed nerve on a tooth.....
Words are just words..... If they carry weight then it is the "WE" that bear the burden.....
To me, the statement "We are not important" just means it is all the more comfortable to push the individual to the curb....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I don't want to turn this into a lengthy discussion. It is simply that we are holding this differently when we look at it.
All I mean to say, very simply and inoffensively, is that we, when we post, are less important than the wider we, when we read. It is our reaction to what we read that is important. The pronoun shifts its meaning.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I know when to shut up.....
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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Nigel,
Thank-you for your words. May wisdom and kindness prevail. 
Teddy
“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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First of all, I don't think I can really agree with Nigel's basic proposition - which is surprising in itself, because we generally tend to think the same way.
I don't see a crisis approaching - that seems to me to be something of a blinkered suggestion. What I see is an opportunity for the board to take a further step towards maturity.
I know that there has been some stress in recent posts - but it's as nothing compared to some other message boards. All of us, from the youngest to the oldest poster, have the maturity, the right, and I'd say pretty much the obligation to disagree from time to time - if we didn't, this place would be pretty boring.
I accept Nigel's comment about the desirability of taking the time to review posts before pressing submit, and I accept that some posters quite obviously don't do that. But - so far as I am aware - this forum is open to ANYONE. That means that some posters will have less grammatical capability than others; in no way is that a criticism, it's simply a fact of life. I don't want to see people discouraged because they feel that their grammar isn't up to scratch, and I'm certainly not going to point out their failings. In particular, think of Jay. Sometimes his posts are far from easy to understand - but Jay is dyslexic. That doesn't make him less intelligent; he just has problems with word sequencing - and in my view he has brought a breath of freshness to our discussions. I think he's a great guy, and I'm happy to be able to call myself his friend.
And then there is Marc. Now I have to admit, yet again, that I possibly hold the record for the numer of fights with Marc - but each battle brings greater understanding of Marc's very real problems. At the core of those problems is the fact that one very traumatic incident in his early life - very understandably - implanted in his mind an absolute terror of the medical profession. Other factors have led him to what I believe - not as a doctor, but as a fellow sufferer - is a severe case of clinical depression. But my illness is controlled by medication, whereas Marc is terrified of the whole process of seeking medication. And it is his mental state which leads him to over-react. I'm not suggesting that he should be afforded special priviliges, but surely he deserves a degree of understanding? But, in the recent upheaval, I don't think he got it. Let me make myself absolutely clear; Marc's misinterpretation of Jay's post and his subsequent unpleasant remarks about Jay cannot be defended - but they COULD have been understood. For most of the day there was a sniping attack in which no-one took the trouble to point out the very obvious misunderstanding. I ackowledge that Deeej (and, incidentally, only Deeej) pointed out that he didn't agree with Marc's interpretation of Jay's post - but no-one attempted to EXPLAIN the misunderstanding.
Inevitably, I'll fight with Marc again - at least on the board - but I'd suggest that failing to understand - or, at least, to try to understand Marc's problems would diminish this board, and thus all who contribute to it. Marc needs us - one manifestation of his depression is agoraphobia, the fear of going out into the wider world. I didn't ask Marc's permission to discuss him in public, but I hope that he, and the rest of those who read this board will understand why I felt the need to do so.
Finally, I have to disagree emphatically with Timmy's comments on this thread. In effect, he is saying that neither Charles Dickens nor Mark Twain were important; all that mattered is the words they left behind them. That, frankly, is rubbish. The words they left behind them reflected the kind of men they were. Without their personalities and beliefs, the words would have been different, and in all probability not worth remembering.
In no way am I trying to blow my own trumpet - I wouldn't have the lung capacity, these days! I've said several times that I love this place, and I do. But the reason I love it is because of the cut-and-thrust of argument, about all manner of things, which we achieve whilst staying friends. There is nothing I would like better than to see input from our lurkers - no conditions, no expectations. But - and I'm not alone here - I very, very rarely start a new thread. That's because I get the biggest kick out of reacting to other posters, and by doing so I have made many friends. I usually (though not always!) try to be logical, but the pleasure comes from encouraging other people to think more deeply. If what I try to do is less important than simple reading of the forum by a non-poster then I'm wasting my time - and I don't think I am.
I'd appreciate views from others - NOT including any personal comments, just commenting on the principle. I'd especially love to hear from first-time posters.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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None of us is Dickens (actually quite a poor author who worte decent potboilers) or Twain, you know 
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I think this thread is an example of a self-destroying prophecy. By that I mean that by saying something is heading for a crisis point and drawing people's attention to it, the crisis itself is arrested and dealt with.
I stand by my comment about the importance of being accurate when expounding an argument. That's what arguments depend on. I am in no way denigrating people with difficulties. After some thirty odd years in the teaching industry I am aware of dyslexia; I am also aware of people who can write accurately and yet for reasons known to themselves don't, whether that be developing a distinctive style, not caring or not realising the importance. Texting language introduced into standard writing is an example of this.
It is time well spent to take a couple of minutes to read through a message before clicking the submit button - you owe that courtesy to your readers - and as was suggested it is easy enough to write an argument on a document that can be spell-checked and then copied and pasted the text. [Yes, spell-checkers have their faults - grammar-checkers too, I am told, though I have no personal experience of them.]
I notice Cossie commented on the minor rather than the major point of my post.
I in no way wish to discourage the cut and thrust of argument; the opposite in fact, I want to encourage it. It's just that when this becomes personal the equilibrium is upset and the individual can assume undue (self-)importance. That is what has happend recently and that is the destructive part.
What was interesting in the so-called Jay-Marc dispute is that by and large Jay kept out of it.
I note Cossie's remark that we so often agree. Many the time I have not responded to a post because Cossie has summed up my views so well.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I wasn't suggesting that any of us were possessed of great literary merit, just that I couldn't follow your logic in suggesting that readers were in some way more important than posters. It's what's written that keeps this board (or any other) alive and kicking. I am sure that this board has a substantial lurker following, and I'm all in favour of that, but it's the posters who define the character of the site and make it clear that new visitors are welcome, and that if they post a question they will get all the help we can collectively give. I'm not saying this from any personal sense of self-importance; as Nigel suggested, posters come and go, but life goes on - but it's the relationship between those who do contribute that makes the site so special.
And I have to say that your dismissal of Charles Dickens as 'quite a poor author who wrote successful potboilers' seems a little unkind, to say the least. True, as was common among Victorian authors, many of his novels were originally published in serialised form in popular magazines, but I quote part of his entry in Chambers' Biographical Dictionary:
'Charles Dickens is the most widely known English writer after Shakespeare, and no other novelist has managed to find both popular success and critical acclaim on such a lavish scale. His novels are a vivid portrayal of life in Victorian England, much of it derived from his own experiences. The breadth, perception and sympathy of his writing , his abiding concern with social deprivation and injustice, his ability to conjure up memorable characters in a few short paragraphs, and the comic genius which permeates even his most serious works, have all ensured that he continues to find a receptive audience, both for the books themselves and in film and stage adaptations of his work.'
Doesn't sound like 'quite a poor author who wrote successful potboilers' to me!
I chose Dickens as an example because he wrote from his own experience and, in so doing, changed public opinion - illustrating (or so I intended) my point that it was Dickens the man who created his legacy.
Incidentally, for trivia buffs, a plaque in one of my local pubs records that Dickens' wife wrote a very successful cookery book, which first introduced that solid English favourite Liver and Bacon. Or so they say!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I see a great deal of sense in your first paragraph.
I agree in principle with your second and third paragraphs, especially as regards courtesy. However, my lifelong interest in the development of language leaves me with an absolute conviction that English is a juggernaut which cannot be stopped - and, personally, I'm happy that this should be so. When I was at Uni, it was regarded as wholly wrong to begin a sentence with a conjunction; now such usage is widely accepted. I see this as a good thing; starting a sentence with 'and' or 'but' can convey a special emphasis that clarifies the writer's intention. So it is with TXT abbreviations; I doubt that they will penetrate mainstream writing, but I think it's inevitable that they will become increasingly commonplace in less formal areas such as electronic communication.
Which brings us to the major point of your original post. I didn't comment on that (you can see this coming, can't you!) because you expressed my own views so well that I did't feel that I had anything to add!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Ooh, Cossie, nothing I would like better than to see a meaty boy like you being really unpleasant.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I still contend that Dickens was a poor author. The overwhelming length and sheer tedium of many of his works is astounding. Almost all shoudl be cut by 50% and some by substantially more.
The point I am making seems to be hard to get across. I am thus probably the only one in step. But it is a part of my vision for the site as a whole and the board in particular.
The site allows authors to showcase their work, but it is not for authors but for readers. That one is probably easier to work with.
But, and this is my point, the board is for those who post to get their voices heard. Without anyone to read what they say there would be no point. Without a readership the poster might as well stand inthe middle of the desert and yell. The readership may or may not respond.
If it responds then the original poster reads. Hmm, ok, that cycle starts again, then.
If it does not respond then it is still important. It is the audience, without which there is still no point in posting.
We post our experiences for ourselves. We benefit, of course we do. And yet the board is read more than it is written to. Thus the readership is vastly important.
I'll leave it, if no-one understands yet. Just treat me as a visionary that you do not understand!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
I still contend that Dickens was a poor author. The overwhelming length and sheer tedium of many of his works is astounding. Almost all shoudl be cut by 50% and some by substantially more.
You are entitled to your view, but you are out of step with most of informed opinion. I am reminded of the guy who was looking at masterpieces in the art gallery and said out loud: "I can't see what's great about these pictures." The attendant came up to him and whispered, "Sir, it's not the pictures that are being tested."
Yes, Dickens' stories are long: it has already been pointed out that they were serialized - like so many of the stories that you, Timmy, host on your site: many of them too could be half as long as they are and lose nothing. That's the nature of the serialized story.
The point I am making ... is a part of my vision for the site as a whole and the board in particular.
This is very important. You see both the site and the board from the point of view of the owner/creator. The rest of us see them from the point of view of visitors and users. If I, for example, visit the message board for some reason other than what meets your intentions there is nothing that you can do about it, because each of us has his own needs and his own agenda.
the board is for those who post to get their voices heard. Without anyone to read what they say there would be no point. Without a readership the poster might as well stand inthe middle of the desert and yell. The readership may or may not respond.
I see it differently. The board is for dialogue. People post because they have something to say. At the same time people read what has been posted out of interest. Thus I am both a poster and a reader all the time, and I can't be divided up into neat compartments. I know that there are many who lurk - just read - but that is because they choose not to participate. I could say the opposite of what you say and it would still be true: if people didn't post there would be nothing for the readers to read.
This forum is so beneficial to so many people that it should not be changed because it is doing its job - whatever that job may be. It may not be what you intended, but it certainly is a very good thing. God bless you for creating it and maintaing it.
Hugs, as always,
"J F R"
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
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I understand the point you are making. I agree in some ways, but not entirely.
Timmy said,
>It is the audience, without which there is still no point in posting.
I know that a lot of people here find the writing itself therapeutic. Otherwise, why would they do it? (Or, at least, why would they write so much?) People write for the writing, as an outlet, as much as to read what they have written and to read what others have written.
One might regard it as selfish to write on a public forum without attempting purely to consider the reaction of the reader, but, then again, by the same logic, it could be said to be selfish to read without any intention to post (though I know you specifically encourage it).
Personally, I write a lot of nonsense. Sometimes, when I am marshalling my thoughts (for a story, perhaps), I will write thousands of words off the cuff and then discard them straight away. I find the process of so doing much more helpful than actually reading them back -- in fact, I don't usually read them back unless I forget a detail later. Occasionally, I will do the same thing on this board -- write, then discard the message before actually posting. There is a point to doing that, and it has nothing to do with the readers.
The point has already been made, I think, that it is the writers who shape the forum and define the relationships within it, not those who read, regardless of how many times they are outnumbered.
David
[Updated on: Thu, 16 November 2006 11:06] |
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Timmy wrote:
>But, and this is my point, the board is for those who post to get their voices heard. Without anyone to read what they say there would be no point. Without a readership the poster might as well stand in the middle of the desert and yell. The readership may or may not respond.<
The answer is symbiosis. [Now what was the question?]
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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As regards Dickens, you are of course fully entitled to your opinion - but I think you are being superficially dismissive. He was writing around 150 years ago, for his contemporary audience, in the manner which they expected and appreciated. It's unreasonable to judge his writing by the preferred standards of today and, as Dickens is remembered as Britain's most famous and critically-acclaimed novelist - ever! - the probability that a dissenting opinion is valid is infinitesimal, whilst the probability that it is wrong is truly enormous. Anyway, why is it necessary to be dismissive of something just because you don't like it? I've never been able to work up any enthusiasm for Tolkien's prose, but I can accept that he was a very significant author in his genre.
More importantly, I simply don't follow the logic of your argument about the board. In round terms, there are probably 10 or 15 regular posters, up to twice that number of occasional posters, and - judging by the number of readers of the posts - at least as many non-posting readers. But if posters post to be read, they need the reassurance of feedback and, by definition, that comes from other posters. It's this rolling exchange that gives the board its character. I'm very happy indeed that there should be a wider readership, but they are non-contributors; they are here because of the input of the contributors, and - in essence - the character of the board would not change if they stayed away. As I said in my previous post, I am not reacting as an individual poster, but rather on behalf of all our posters; your expressed statement of priorities was actually quite insulting to them - because it is they, and only they, who consitute the readership that interacts with their fellow-posters. And, of course, it is that interaction that makes the board the excellent resource that it has become.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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There was no insult intended, but I suppose perception is reality. I think we view the same thing from different places. Your view is not incorrect, yet nor is mine.
My purpose in creating the forum was always to have a community that was self sustaining. The benefit of the forum to the wider readership is something I viewed from the start as even more important than the community. The readership here is wide, though not enormous, as you may judge from the number of times a post has been read.
I believe that our own experiences, while highly personal to us, are hugely valid for others to see. That is what I am driving at.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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