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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Four thoughts ...
Four thoughts ...  [message #39226] Fri, 24 November 2006 18:48 Go to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



... in ascending order of specificity:

1. Never under-estimate the power of denial.
2. You never know anyone as well as you think you do.
3. A belief that someone is entirely straight does not make them entirely straight.
4. You are not necessarily the only person playing the "gender-evasion game" and you should always be on the lookout for it in other people, who may be playing it with you.
5. "You could knock me over with a feather" is a well-known expression, is it not?

I'm afraid, because I made a promise, because I'm not anonymous, and because there is a chance that a particular person will visit this site, that I cannot be any more specific than that, but hopefully it should be possible to read between the lines to some degree.

David
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39233 is a reply to message #39226] Sat, 25 November 2006 02:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich

Really getting into it
Location: Seaofstars
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 563



Interesting, just for fun I’ll throw a few thoughts out there too.

Self denial is one of human kind’s favorite games, for reasons not always know to our very selves. Personally I think it’s because we are emotionally very fragile creatures and as a means of self preservation we tend to create facades. To expose our true selves would subject our core beings to the vagaries of other’s subjective points of view.

One thing I would suggest is to not look too closely and accept people for what and who they want you to see. I’ve danced this dance before and it comes to nothing but trouble.

Bungle in the Jungle Ian Anderson;

Walking through forests of palm tree apartments ---
Scoff at the monkeys who live in their dark tents
Down by the waterhole --- drunk every Friday ---
Eating their nuts --- saving their raisins for Sunday.
Lions and tigers who wait in the shadows ---
Their fast but they’re lazy, and sleep in green meadows.
Lets bungle in the jungle --- well, that’s all right by me.
Im a tiger when I want love,
But Im a snake if we disagree.

Just say a word and the boys will be right there:
With claws at your back to send a chill through the night air.
Is it so frightening to have me at your shoulder?
Thunder and lightning couldn’t be bolder.
Ill write on your tombstone, ``i thank you for dinner.
This game that we animals play is a winner.

Lets bungle in the jungle --- well, that’s all right by me.
I’m a tiger when I want love,
But I’m a snake if we disagree.

The rivers are full of crocodile nasties
And he who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He’s a lover of life but a player of pawns ---
Yes, the king on his sunset lies waiting for dawn
To light up his jungle
As play is resumed.
The monkeys seem willing to strike up the tune.


Peace



People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
Hmm...  [message #39237 is a reply to message #39226] Sat, 25 November 2006 05:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZeroGrav is currently offline  ZeroGrav

Really getting into it
Location: dallas, Texas
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 785




Whats his name... LOL

If you need to talk you now where to find me.Smile

Jay



So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39245 is a reply to message #39226] Sat, 25 November 2006 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Never understimate the power of your friendship, nor another's friendhsip for you.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39246 is a reply to message #39245] Sat, 25 November 2006 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



There are some friendships that are so long-established, on a strictly platonic basis, that to upset the balance would seriously risk diminishing them.

The best time to test a hypothetical friendship would have been five years ago, not now -- for when you only see a person four or five times a year, progress (or, should the worst happen, the process of repair) is likely to be glacial.

David
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39247 is a reply to message #39246] Sat, 25 November 2006 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I disagree with you in aspects of this. Many long term good friendships between boy and girl and boy and boy have formed the basis of long term love of one sort or another.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39248 is a reply to message #39247] Sat, 25 November 2006 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Perhaps I am unable to believe that anyone could find me attractive. It's not necessarily anything to do with looks. But I know that I'm a bit peculiar in mannerisms; I don't like crowds and I don't like getting physically too close to other people. This might (I don't know) cause significant problems in an intimate relationship. Also, I have no proper dress sense (beyond knowing, in a very general sense, that it's not a good idea to wear a certain type of clothing in a few particular circumstances).

I certainly think that admitting an attraction to a person will inevitably change the status of the friendship to some extent, and it is likely to make things more difficult if it is not reciprocal.

David
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39249 is a reply to message #39248] Sat, 25 November 2006 19:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I think you need some additional opinions regarding whetehr a friendship can remain after an attraction is admitted. But what if one risks a mutual attraction being wasted?

Perhaps the trick since you are both friends is to spend quality time together. Not dating, just being real friends.

A conversational topic might develop along the lines of "How does one behave if a friend admits an attraction? What does it do to the friendship?"

As for 'attractive', that is truly not your judgement call. If, for example, I find you attractive, then it matters not one jot to me what you wear or whether you have a warty nose. You may hate your cavalry twill trousers, plaid shirt and warts, but I might either see past them or adore them.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
I agree with Timmy.  [message #39265 is a reply to message #39249] Sun, 26 November 2006 02:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



I suspect that you are instinclively throwing up barriers for your own protection.

Just because you (and that's the general 'you', not you personally) meet someone who is gay doesn't meen that there is an automatic sexual undercurrent in the relationship. Gayness may seem much more significant than a shared love of football, or motor racing, or archaeology, but in the context of a relationship it works in the same way; it's something you have in common and can therefore talk about with genuine interest.

The question of mutual attraction is entirely separate; it may follow, or it may not - statistically, it probably won't. That's not any reflection on either party; we all have our own inbuilt set of 'attraction filters' and visual attraction, though naturally our first instinct, isn't really all that important. Successful relationships are built upon compatibility and respect - and, if you're lucky, love! As Timmy says, if there is a mutual attraction it will be blind to superficial imperfections, real or imagined.

Turning to the specific 'you', if you really do have an opportunity to 'come out' to an existing friend whom you have discovered to be gay, you should seize it with both hands. (Nigel, get your mind out of the gutter, I meant seize the OPPORTUNITY!) At the very least, your friend should be a useful source of information - and, since he knows you personally, that information may well be more valid than anything we at the board can offer.



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
I agree with Timmy and Cossie.  [message #39275 is a reply to message #39265] Sun, 26 November 2006 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kupuna is currently offline  kupuna

Really getting into it
Location: Norway
Registered: February 2005
Messages: 510



Do it, Deeej!
I'm sure that if he is a good friend, things are not going to be more difficult. It is just as likely to make things easier, even if he can't reciprocate your feelings. Having a good friend who knows and recognizes your deepest thoughts and feelings, and whom you can talk to about them, is worth tons of gold.
A quiet hope...  [message #39285 is a reply to message #39226] Sun, 26 November 2006 21:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



I hope, whoever he is, that he comes here. I hope he reads your post as it is intended, or as I think it is intended - as a question, a gentle question, to him about whether he could possibly be interested in taking a good mutual friendship maybe to a level of snuggling and chatting about life, the universe and everything.

I am sure that your morality, something I know to be very important to you, may allow you to let him remain a friend rather than ever to consider even kissing his cheek speculatively. And yet I also know the great wonder of being able at last to relax in congenial gay company, and the warm feeling a chaste snuggle gives.

Perhaps there is more available between you, perhaps there is nothing except friendship. Perhaps he is so very similar to you that he fears to ask you whether you would be amenable to a snuggle. Perhaps he has always adored you, perhaps he has never even considered you.

But do remember one thing. In heterosexual circles people express attractions and do not lose true friendship over it. Trivial acquaintances fall by the wayside, but those you have known and been friends with, true friends, tend to stick absolutely to your side.

I know that daring to speak is hard. And yet it is also necessary. And if he is not wishing to be a snuggle buddy, perhaps more, then I am sure that, if he moves in other gay circles, he will intorduce you to his circle, too. DO get your minds out of the gutter!

I know there is a probability with our oddly overlapped history, that I know the young man. Do let him know he is welcome here.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39297 is a reply to message #39226] Mon, 27 November 2006 06:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian1407a is currently offline  Brian1407a

On fire!
Location: USA
Registered: December 2005
Messages: 1104



Hi my friend and bud. Allways just be your beautiful self. If your friend shows up, its no big deal, you are still you and that is not going to change. I hope he will see yo for who you are and you two may become very good friends. being gay is not a thing or a state of being.being gay is an attitude of the mind. because somone else is gay doenst mena you have to go to bed with them, but you can be friends. Having gay friends is neat, just like all of us tyogether here. Someone we can talk to and not have to hide anything and they will understand.

I love your new pick ;-D



I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........

Affirmation........Savage Garden
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39298 is a reply to message #39297] Mon, 27 November 2006 06:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZeroGrav is currently offline  ZeroGrav

Really getting into it
Location: dallas, Texas
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 785




I am with Brian.

Jay



So say what you want
(You know I'm wasting all my time)
You've gotta mean it when you say what you want
(You're only safe when you're alone)
And everybody's on your mind
Saying anything to get you by
A muddled post  [message #39301 is a reply to message #39226] Mon, 27 November 2006 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Hi all,

Thanks to everyone who replied. Sorry for not responding yesterday -- the university internet connection was down.

After a bit of reflection I've come to the conclusion that it does not matter nearly as much as I thought it did. At first I was rather shaken to discover that I had failed to appreciate that an old friend was gay (or at least bisexual) -- but, then, how could I have known? It is not something that one wears on one's sleeve (unless one wants to).

(I ought to add that I came out to this friend more than a year ago. Most of my friends are aware I'm gay, and it's no secret to anyone who asks. I do feel like a slight idiot for failing to see his interest in my [almost nonexistent] 'gay activities' [such as this board] as anything other than friendly curiosity!)

The 'attraction' business: well, I was moderately attracted to him at school. But -- I think -- what happened several years ago (five or six) is that I switched from perceiving him as someone who is attractive to someone who is unattainable (since I assumed him to be straight). Thus the question of whether I was still attracted to him no longer arose. So when he came out to me I ended up in serious difficulty reconciling the feelings I had had at one stage with the jolt of discovering he was gay (and thus not entirely unattainable, maybe).

After some reflection I have come to the conclusion that being 'attainable' (only theoretically, of course) does not change much: for I have grown used to him being 'unattainable' and have, since then, not wished for anything further in the friendship. These days I don't see my friend very often, which means that that the friendship is pretty much in stasis: we enjoy meeting up a few times a year, but then we go away and do something else. I don't think there is a lot of scope for changing it, and if I were to try I might find that we drift apart as friends entirely.

If both of us happen to move to London and end up seeing each other socially much more frequently, then that would be an opportunity to test the waters, but not now.

He has agreed to go to Soho with me some time, as a friend, which is good: I've never had anyone of my age with whom to go, nor has he, I think.

David
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39304 is a reply to message #39297] Mon, 27 November 2006 13:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Hi Brian,

You're absolutely right. It was just -- well -- strange, because I had convinced myself that none of my old school friends were gay, because they had not mentioned it.

I'm sure we'll talk about it again sooner or later.

David
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39306 is a reply to message #39304] Mon, 27 November 2006 14:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian1407a is currently offline  Brian1407a

On fire!
Location: USA
Registered: December 2005
Messages: 1104



Still think that pic is cute.



I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........

Affirmation........Savage Garden
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39307 is a reply to message #39306] Mon, 27 November 2006 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Thank you, Brian. You have made my day. Smile
Re: I agree with Timmy.  [message #39308 is a reply to message #39265] Mon, 27 November 2006 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



Thanks for the advice, Cossie.

There is certainly no sexual undercurrent now. But there was, occasionally, at school. Then again, there was a sexual undercurrent and/or flirtatiousness with almost everybody. That is what boarding school is all about!

This particular friend knows I'm gay already, for I came out to him last summer. He is more cautious about 'coming out' to everyone than me -- though he probably has fewer hang-ups than I did a couple of years ago.

David
Re: A muddled post  [message #39310 is a reply to message #39301] Mon, 27 November 2006 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



You have a habit of rationalising away things that may also, if not rationlised away, lead somewhere.

No-one says this old friend may be the love of your life. It's possible that you may each lead the other to the loves of each of your lives, though. Both braver as a pair, not a couple, and both able to relax totally and know that the sexuality you have each doscovered is shared and is normal.

And old and good friends may snuggle, chat, gossip, fight, fall out, make up, and much else besides.

All I have suggested and will suggest is that you each take comfort in each other's friendship and each see what transpires.

There is everything right and comfort between two good friends in whatever form it arises. Pun intended.

[Updated on: Mon, 27 November 2006 15:26]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: A muddled post  [message #39311 is a reply to message #39310] Mon, 27 November 2006 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Deeej is currently offline  Deeej

Needs to get a life!
Location: Berkshire, UK
Registered: March 2005
Messages: 3281



The next time I'll see him will be on the 9th of December at a party. It may be a bit difficult to have a private conversation with so many friends and family around, but I'll have a go.

I'm not rationalising anything away -- simply saying that it's almost impossible to make progress over anything if you're not actually face-to-face. Once I am actually face-to-face I won't exclude anything: one cannot conclude anything in advance. Thursday night demonstrated that my logic is far from infallible!

David
Re: A muddled post  [message #39312 is a reply to message #39311] Mon, 27 November 2006 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Well, at the party you can always say something that suggests you would like to chat soon, and in private Smile

Of course, with luck and a following wind, youi may well have emailed him this site address to remind him of it, assuming he does not yet know it. It is valid to say "I do reveal a bit of myself there, so I am a little embarrassed", and allow nature to take its course Smile

Knowing a little of your taste in friends I know he will be a total gentleman. That seems to me to be the type of person you are most at home with.

[Updated on: Mon, 27 November 2006 15:33]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Four thoughts ...  [message #39318 is a reply to message #39306] Mon, 27 November 2006 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



He is cute. He just fails to see it, because we can none of us believe we might be cute ourselves.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: I agree with Timmy.  [message #39373 is a reply to message #39308] Wed, 29 November 2006 06:35 Go to previous message
electroken is currently offline  electroken

Likes it here
Location: USA
Registered: May 2004
Messages: 271




I can only tell you that I was totally in the closet until only 6 years ago when I was 61. I NEVER had an opportunity like you have now before that time, and it is an extreme regret not to have had someone that I could talk to about my sexuality in an open manner.

I have been happier with my "self" in the past 6 years than at any time in my life up until then. My inner peace was noticed by my niece who made a comment that she had not seen me so much at peace before.

I do not see any risk to you and your friend being friends in a more direct manner where you would be able to discuss issues with him you could not discuss with others.



Ken
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