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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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This article on Yahoo made me think about the subject of teen suicides and the part we all try to take to assist in getting the troubled young through a crisis
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061216/ap_on_re_us/missouri_suicides
Does anyone here have any particular ideas on what we need to look for to recognise when someone is in trouble and what to do about it?
Because this is a Place of Safety teens with problems are attracted here.
How do we recognise when there is a cry for help and what is the best way to provide that help.
I am aware that almost everyone who posts here is on the lookout for this and on more than one occasion has steered that person away from taking that fateful step.
This is a subject that is close to me having had a cousin who committed suicide and left no note so the family will always wonder why.
Aussie
[edited to make the link work - timmy]
[Updated on: Sun, 17 December 2006 10:23] by Moderator |
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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This is a complex area.
First a generalisation: Those who cry for help tend not to do the deed. Note that this is a generalisation. There will be an important number of exceptions.
Second qualification: A "suicide" from hanging who is seated or who is not dangling may well have been experimenting with auto-erotic asphyxiation. It may well not be suicide at all. Most parents finding them in this situation tend to tidy away the evidence of masturbation. It's dangerous. It is often fatal. I have lost an acquaintance to it. http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/justintheokie/memorial.html Do not do it
After those qualifications we listen. And, if in doubt, we act. Some time ago I acted (ask The Black Prince). I was wrong with my interpretation of what he had said, but, as I told him, I would rather have been wrong and lose his friendship for ever than have been right and done nothing and found he had died.
My answers are not definitive.
[Updated on: Sun, 17 December 2006 23:59]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Thanks for that link Timmy. It was quite moving and tragic.
Was Justin someone who posted here?
Just a suggestion but is it possible to have a page on the Iomfats website specifically about suicide with that link to Justin's page?
It could also carry advice for the troubled.
I know we have had discussions on this problem before.
Aussie
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Someone I knew at my prep school [private primary school, ages 8-13] hanged himself in his first year at public school [private secondary school, aged 13-18] because of what was afterwards assumed to be solo auto-erotic asphyxiation. (He was not the suicidal type at all; it was the only explanation that made sense.) Because he was at a well-known school it was rather unpleasantly splashed across the British press. It devastated his family and cast a shadow over both schools for a while. Apparently (or so it was reported) strangling games were a 'fad' among the junior years (13/14/15 year-olds) at his school at the time. These things are not worth risking, even if everyone else is doing it, and definitely, definitely not alone.
It was also the first time (I was 13) that it occurred to me that my generation was no more invulnerable than any other. Until that point I had never known anyone who had died, not even aged relatives.
David
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I suppose we can. It's an awkward subject. Justin posted elsewhere. I knew him slightly.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I am under a lot of pressure workwise etc right now. Can you write somethjng to start me off?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Not being an expert on the subject I may have to do a bit of research on it first but I really believe it is a worthwhile project. As I mentioned earlier any advice from the posters here as to what one should or shouldn't do are welcome. In fact any ideas are welcome
As has previously been said by at least one other on the help and friendship that has been given here and the effect it has had is worthwhile info for a page such as proposed. Any stories about how they have felt and what turned them around would be good.
The advantage of including things like that puts it all together and makes it easily accessible without having to search previous posts.
Also links to other resources would be a help.
To my way of thinking someone in desperation needs answers to the problem they are facing and if they can obtain these and see light at the end of the tunnel it may be all that is necessary.
I realise it is a very complex subject and we may not always win (that's the hard part) but it is worth trying. I have previously spoken to guys on the board who sounded down and then they just disappear leaving one wondering what happened.
Thanks for your interest and cooperation Timmy and I will give it more thought.
Aussie
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many others link to the site..... I think it would be OK. I don't know who "owns" the site at the moment, but will ask.
http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/1866.html
(\\__/) And if you don't believe The sun will rise
(='.'=) Stand alone and greet The coming night
(")_(") In the last remaining light. (C. Cornell)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It is not linking to the site that is awkward. It is awkward to write the correct things about this topic without encouraging experimentaton. It is awkward to write an article about suicide per se without a perception that the act is encouraged.
If we can solve the awkwardness of the topic then the rest follows naturally.
I'd really appreciate help, here. Getting thsi articleright is probably more important than many others.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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I agree with you Timmy that a link to that site would tend to encourage experimentation.
To tell the truth I must live a sheltered life because I hadn't heard of that subject and wasn't referring to that when I wrote my original post and was actually shocked to read about it.
So far I have been reading material on this Australian site which has a lot of links to other sites.
http://www.livingisforeveryone.com.au/aboutlife.php
Reading the signs of depression I was amazed how many times we hear some of the clues from posters here.
The main thing we need to focus on is to make sure everyone knows there are sympathetic ears to talk to without any moralising.
Depending on the problem they can be directed to appropriate help or just keep talking about it. Many times just talking it out with someone will enable them to see their own solution and there are some very intelligent and caring folks here.
I agree that it is hard to get started I have had a couple of goes and got nowhere.
Aussie
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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No matter how you word it,,,, no matter how you color it dangerous,,,, invariably, someone will take the notion to a closed room and experiment with a vengence.
After all, orgasm in and of itself is incredible and the thought of making it intensly better to an over-sexed youth is an open invitation to give it a good go.
As nice an idea it is to talk about, and the inclination to dissuade someone from trying a good one..... I think the danger of giving a young fertile mind an otherwise unknown method out weighs all the good the information would provide.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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This whole area is a challenge.
On the one hand it is stating the obvious that we would very much like those who are suicidal not to walk that road. Even so I am not sure that anything we say here, anything anyone says anywhere, would dissuade a determined perpsn from suicide. And if someone is crying for help, I think we give that help in spades to anyone who asks.
On the other hand I look at teenage boys who hang themselves and doubt in many cases that they intended death, unless, of course, they are dangling clear of the ground in which case auto-erotic asphyxia is pretty much discountable. In this case I suspect we may provide a "how to" manual by accident instead, and could thus encourage the act.
Teenage boys are immortal, we all know that. They are invulnerable, even to green kryponite. No harm can ever befall them. I wish it were so.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I have stayed out of this discussion but purhaps that would be wrong. Parents look for a change in behavior. Look for a deep sadness. The person can hide a lot but they cant hide it all. My mom should have known something was up, especially on the second try. she didnt because she wasnt concerned enough. Parents who run their homes like a army barracks need to be careful. First the child will grow up to resent it. If that child is gay it will place a wall between them. If the child has no place to go, they will find a way out of their pain.
As far as the sex end goes. They had a rash of atempted suicides and suicides at my school because of this. I dont know what the answer is. Kids are going to experiment, its the nature of things.
I believe in Karma....what you give is what you get returned........
Affirmation........Savage Garden
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Obviously, the most difficult part of setting up a page like the one you suggest is knowing what to put into it. What can convince someone who is at the edge of his world, that living on is better than leaving?
A person who is contemplating suicide needs to hear words of hope. And there IS hope, and some of us have survived one or more periods of deep depression only because there was someone who loved us and wanted us to stay, and kept telling us that.
Most websites covering the subject seem to be either 'suicide awareness and prevention' sites, or they provide support for families or individuals mourning the loss of their loved ones. Maybe you're right, Aussie, that if there be any place in cyberspace where a message of hope can and should be told, it's here. And in fact, it has been and is repeatedly told here, in a unique 'One for all, and all for one' solidarity between the board members. If we manage to keep that solidarity alive, maybe that's all that can be done here?
As to asphyxiation and experimenting with sex, I believe that openness is better than keeping quiet. Some kids love walking the tightrope and, as grandson Brian says, Kids are going to experiment, its the nature of things. It isn't something that goes away if we don't talk about it, and if I'm not wrong these kids are not suicidal. They want to live.
Live on, survive, for the earth gives forth wonders.
It may swallow your heart, but the wonders keep on coming.
(Salman Rushdie, 'The Ground Beneath Her Feet')
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I think Aussie's idea is excellent, and I'd be happy to assist in any way I can. I agree that although the 'catchment' of the site is relatively small, the probability that depressed teens will find their way here is proportionately quite significant.
I think, though, that - whilst providing links to other support sites - we should focus on what we do best and that, I think, is talking very specifically about people's problems. Whether through posting on the board or through one-to-one e-mail contact, I believe we CAN make a difference, though as Aussie has already suggested, we would inevitably have our failures.
Teen suicide almost always involves a sense of rejection, whether actual, imagined or anticipated. Knowing that there is someone, or ineed a group of people, whose ONLY interest is helping YOU is a pretty powerful incentive to postpone any decisive action.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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Great to see you have returned to the fold Cossie. Thanks to assurances from Deeej we were able to stop worrying what fate had befallen you.
Thanks also for support, words of wisdom and offers of help from yourself and also Brian and Sailor.
I am not sure if I am correct or not but I am still seeing this asphixiation thing as separate from suicide and look on it as experimentation for the purposes of getting the ultimate buzz(albeit with disastrous consequences)much the same as glue or petrol sniffing, train surfing etc. I don't think the participants really intend to die but often do. I think warnings of the dire results of these actions may best be left to person to person contact such as schools, parents.
So now, further to a suicide page, does anyone have any concrete ideas on how to start it?
Aussie
[Updated on: Tue, 19 December 2006 03:27] |
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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I have an idea on a start....
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Attachment: stop.jpg
(Size: 13.76KB, Downloaded 249 times)
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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The two are separate. I mentioned the auto-erotic element because it is often filed as suicide. Technically, of course, it is. The victim killed himself. But that was not the intended outcome.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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This makes the point much better than any words. The simple fact is that people ignore stop signs. So, before working on what is a good idea, we need to consider whether the good idea can be turned into reality.
After all, if you are suiciddal but do not intend to go through with it, you call the Samaritans, don't you? Obviously not always, but you see where I'm coming from.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Right enough.... And it is that expectation of success that promotes experimentation.
Failure however irreversible is always a possibility. Perhaps it is that possibility that could be built upon as a warning?
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Well, when I see a stop sign I stop....
BUT.... thinking back to the time when I lived in the UK I think I'd have to agree with your assesment of the practical use of the stop sign..... I don't think I ever saw a driver there come to a full stop at a sign.
And it is alot better than "procede with caution" or even..... "go"
What are "samaritans".... I assume you are not talking about the bible?
[Updated on: Tue, 19 December 2006 07:53]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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A charitable organisation that I thought was global. Volunteers offer telephone anymous uncritical support to those who are in pain and call them. I see now that they are British abd Irish only: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Samaritans
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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What a great start
Aussie
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... is to decide exactly who we are aiming to help.
Marc's idea of starting with a stop sign is excellent. The only thing we need to check is how universally the sign illustrated in Marc's post has been adopted. I mention this because until relatively recently it wasn't used in the UK; we had a much more elaborate version, with lettering stating 'HALT AT MAJOR ROAD AHEAD'. That message wasn't half as effective!
Can our overseas posters confirm that the sign is recognised where they live?
Timmy's post mentioning Samaritans started me thinking. I feel, perhaps, that we shouldn't focus upon those on the verge of suicide. This is a site which may well attract troubled teens, so it might be more effective to direct the message primarily towards those who feel isolated and rejected, at the stage when suicide is only a future option. It may seem a subtle distinction, but the approach these two situations require is certainly different. I suspect that teens often find their way here to seek assurance that they are not alone, and we should make more of an effort to make them welcome and to encourage them to seek individual support before they contemplate suicide as a viable solution to their troubles. Put another way, we should address our audience, and I doubt whether potential suicides are likely to come here at the eleventh hour.
I'm not sure I expressed that very well, but I hope you can follow my logic!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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You are spot on Cossie and what you say is exactly what I have been thinking over the last 24 hours.
I think ours should be a softly softly approach and we are not aiming to be a crisis centre. Rather, much as you suggest, continuing to do as we have done in the past by offering a sympathetic ear and encouraging where necessary but making it clear on a page that help is offered.
It can still have links to those other areas that deal with specific issues and we can encourage guys to follow up on those sites.
The stop sign is universally recognised in OZ but also a crossroad sign might be usable as well because that's where people are at.
You did express it very well and your thinking is clear
Aussie
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I view the stop sign as ironic. Thus cossie has a major point. No serious suicide is going to react to "Stop, don't do it" unless they look, and say "To heck with it" and then act. I truly felt Marc was placing it here as irony, and I saw what I perceived to be his point.
Here we help the helpable.
Our audience is those who need answers to questions they have no-one else to ask. It is the child, or the adult that child has become, who feels alone or scared or puzzled or, or or..... because of that one peculiar element we all share - an attraction or a need for the same gender as anythimng form a soulmate to a full sexual partner.
Some of our audience may self harm, others may cry out, and others may even choose to die. My view is that we need to help in areas that we can help in, and leave the others alone.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Aussie
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Really getting into it |
Registered: August 2006
Messages: 475
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No disagreement there.
Aussie
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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Nope, not one iota of irony intended....
but what do I know....
Nevertheless..... what about this?
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Attachment: options.jpg
(Size: 39.46KB, Downloaded 283 times)
[Updated on: Wed, 20 December 2006 11:49]
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I like that. If the picture is not copyrighted it can be used
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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marc
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Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
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it is open sourse
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I see the relevance of a 'cross roads' sign - especially the older kind, with an X in the centre of the triangle. Most modern UK signs have a vertical/horizontal cross, with a thicker line indicating the major route; this doesn't convey quite the same sense of available options.
I confess that I didn't see the 'stop' sign as ironic; I saw it in the sense of 'stop and think' rather than as a last-minute injunction.
In the later stages, we need to think about page design and presentation, because it really does affect the impact of the content of the page. For the moment, I think that the best strategy might be to review other sites to extract the parts most relevant to our own objectives, and to sort that information a 'skeleton' for our own page; this can then be fleshed out as we think appropriate. It's much easier to develop a good product when you have an outline to work with!
That said, my own computer time will be limited until 8 January, but I may have a chance to do at least something between Christmas and New Year.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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