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1. This is Alice and Bob's house.
2. This is Alice and Bobs' house.
3. This is Alice's and Bob's house.
I would never say the third one out loud.
Presumably number 1, "This is (Alice and Bob)'s house", where Alice and Bob are a plural unit, like the children in "This is (the children)'s house". Am I right?
I would like to check because I don't remember ever having seen this in an English grammar.
David
[Updated on: Sun, 14 January 2007 19:07] |
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Fowler's Modern English Usage, 2nd edition, revised by Sir Ernest Gowers 1965:
Because it is a question of euphony as well as grammar one is recommended to 'run away' from the problem and say / write: This is the house of Alice and Bob.
Number 3 is grammatically logical, 1 is used and 2 is out of the question because Alice and Bob are two singulars, not one plural. Fowler only says what is wrong in this instance, rather than what is right, and he honestly avoids the issue.
Hugs
Nigel
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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Thank you, Nigel.
When speaking, I have always regarded myself as saying the first. I have tended to avoid the issue when writing, but sometimes it is necessary to write down direct speech literally, in which case one has no option but to find the "most correct" option.
I would agree that number 2 looks wrong; I included it for completeness (and because I have been known to make mistakes). The only time it might work would be if Alice lived in a ménage a trois with two men both named Bob.
David
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Just making a fleeting visit - I'll probably be back later - but I can't resist this sort of thing!
The usual standby, Fowler's 'Modern English Usage', skirts around this problem, leaving the impression that the compilers didn't know the answer. However, the 'Oxford Guide to English Usage' leaves us in no doubt - the construction is properly called the 'group possessive'. Your example (A) is correct.
A short noun phrase which is commonly regarded as a single unit is treated as if it were a single word. Examples given in 'Oxford' include 'The King of Spain', 'John and Mary', 'somebody else' and 'a quarter of an hour' - hence 'somebody else's problem', 'a quarter of an hour's delay' and so on.
'Short' and 'commonly regarded' are the key words - it's obviously wrong to write 'The guy I told you about on the phone yesterday's name is Brendan', though this would be acceptable in informal conversation. If this has to be put in writing, the only correct way of doing so is to write 'The name of the guy I told you about on the phone yesterday is Brendan'.
Next question?
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I suppose it actually depends whether Alice and Bob are joint tenants or tenants in common!
But in common parlance and written down it is "the house of Alice and Bob", thus Alice and Bob's house
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Timmy said,
>in common parlance and written down it is "the house of Alice and Bob", thus Alice and Bob's house
Yup, that's what I thought. Thanks.
I tend to take a two-pronged approach to grammar. First I wonder, "What have I seen before?" and then I think "Is it justified?" If I can't resolve one to my satisfaction it niggles at me and I start doubting the other -- my memory or my reasoning. Luckily, doubt is much better than no doubt because I can then look it up or ask and make sure I get it right. In this case, I was pretty sure I knew by example but I was not sure of the justification. Thus I was particularly pleased with Cossie's explanation.
Yours is not quite as pleasing because it's only an extrapolation, not a full explanation. I think at the back of my mind are jostling the remnants of a half-heard and half-remembered rule about when you use 's and when you use s'. I'm pretty certain my doubt would not stand up to scrutiny if remembered in full -- I know how the rules work perfectly well in virtually all cases these days (better than almost everyone I know) without needing to be able to recite them to the letter. When I was little I was taught a lot of unpleasant and, it did not take me long to discover, far too simplistic rules about grammar, punctuation and spelling (I before E except after C -- argh!), most of which I have forgotten, thank God, because in many ways these rules were an impediment to understanding them properly. I don't think much of learning by rote.
I do not remember ever having learnt specifically about group possessives.
David
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Brian1507a
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Getting started |
Location: USA
Registered: January 2007
Messages: 8
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Here in the US it would be Alice and Bob's house. Not that we have any corner on the gramerical market.
[Updated on: Mon, 15 January 2007 00:52] |
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... the grammar of American English falls into two distinct categories; the parts that are the same as British English and are therefore correct, and the parts that differ from British English and are therefore plainly wrong. So there!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Brian1507a
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Getting started |
Location: USA
Registered: January 2007
Messages: 8
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Grandfather, If you have ever heard someone from the south (US) speak, you would know that we tend to speak closser to Kings engish than the yankees do. I think it has to do with the south being settled more by the Irish, Scotish and English. So there!
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... that if there were lots of Scottish settlers, you probably have a point. I suppose that the rednecks must be descended from the English and the Irish!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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Brian1507a
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Getting started |
Location: USA
Registered: January 2007
Messages: 8
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I always thought the rednecks were decended from Neanderthals.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Surely the south is not cold enough for the Scots? I thought Canada was as far south as you lot went. Unless looking at the South Island of NZ, of course!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I'd never heard of the group possessive either. I was taught gtrammar and syntax by a most amazing pedant, though. Add that to a love of Latin, and a good helping of common sense.....
However, I suspect tenantship in common would technically mean the house is Alice's and is also Bob's.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... they'd be Irish, then!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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Don't you know that palm-trees proliferate on the Ardnamurchan peninsula, where the village of Strontian is pretty well tropical, by courtesy of the Gulf Stream.
And in any event, Scots have always been willing to go absolutely anywhere if there was money to be made!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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I can't say that I was familiar with the term 'group posessive' either, but to the extent that we Brits have an ultimate authority on points of language and usage, that authority is undoubtedly the Oxford University Press - which, incidentally, publishes 'Fowler's Guide to English Usage' as well as the 'Oxford Guide' from which I quoted.
As regards tenancy-in-common, "Alice's and Bob's" (or the equivalent) would be correct in the context of a legal document as it would be necessary, in order to avoid any possible ambiguity, to emphasise that each had an idependent interest in the property. In any other context, though, whether the reference is to the house where Alice and Bob live or to the house which Alice and Bob own, the correct form would be "Alice and Bob's". But the delicious thing about English is that most people, at every academic level, don't lose too much sleep over details. The value of the OUP is that (unlike, for example, the French Academy) it doesn't dictate the use of language; it simply reminds us of the rules and, if we collectively choose to ignore a rule, that rule is duly amended.
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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I just wonder, how many Bobs are there in the house?
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There are forty-two, living with Alice in a ménage à quarante-trois.
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I was afraid of something like that!
Maybe Alice doesn't even live there? She may be their neighbour,
or even the underpaid housemaid of a group of (gay?) Bobs. (Bob's?)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I suspect that you walk right in, it's around the back, just half a mile from the railroad track, if I remember aright
It's Alice's restaurant, where you can get anything you want.
This song would merit a revival right now.
[Updated on: Wed, 17 January 2007 00:31]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
> It's Alice's restaurant, where you can get anything you want.
>
(excepting Alice) - not that that's likely to be of great concern to most of us here!
Fabulous track - Arlo Guthrie was (predictably) a hero of mine!
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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cossie
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On fire! |
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699
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... I just can't get used to not livin' next door to Alice!
For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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What I do not understand is that this whole generation of US citizens who protested abiut the Vietnam war are neither dead nor are they protesting about the war in Iraq.
Where are the protests? Where are the "1,2,3 what are we fighting for"s. What has happened to the USA? That generation is not stupid, so where is it whenthe world needs it?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Presumably in a town called Alice.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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timmy wrote:
> Where are the "1,2,3 what are we fighting for"s.
Country Joe is still going, and still an activist. His site is on http://www.countryjoe.com/ , and yes, he has an extensive section on "current issues of war and peace".
But many of those who were active then are now old and exhausted. And, to be fair, as people get older, they often have more things they are reluctant to jeopardise by protesting too much (homes, kids, etc) - the tendency of people to become less radical with advancing age is well-known. I, of course, seem to be drifting the opposite way ...
Here in the UK, the first "not in my name" marches had a massive impact, and energised a lot of students and others to be active for the first time. But disillusion rapidly set in - perhaps it's because of a culture of "instant gratification" that had expected an immediate result.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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I can think of several reasons. The treat of being beaten over the head with a billy club at over 50 is not something you find could be as recoverable from as you once may have thought in your youth. Where we were once were a lot more care free, most of us have to go to work every day to pay for the insurance that could cover the cost of being beaten over the head with a billy club. LOL no more cutting classes!
Honestly though Timmy I have thought about this and I can say for sure the dynamic is not the same by a long shot. Actually I think many of us from that time realized as Guthrie has it is mainly from within that we can effect the most change. It comes down to not the spirit of religions that will decide our destiny it is the spirit mankind, not them or us. Until we can all get on the peace train there will no doubt be a great deal of strife in the world. I guess it’s, do WE want to get on the hell bound train of more religious hate and bigotry, and war for profit. Or the peace train, and what will all of us be willing to do to see that train come into the station. The voice is being raised, just in a different ways. http://www.alternet.org/story/46794/
Here’s Arlo http://www.guthriecenter.org/main.shtml
Know I’d like to apologize for the invasion of incorrect use of grammar and wrongful and over deployment of commas. : )
The Fish Cheer & I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die Rag
Gimme an F!
F!
Gimme an I!
I!
Gimme an S!
S!
Gimme an H!
H!
What's that spell ?
FISH!
What's that spell ?
FISH!
What's that spell ?
FISH!
Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Gotta go out and get those reds —
The only good commie is the one who's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Huh!
Well, come on Wall Street, don't move slow,
Why man, this is war au-go-go.
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of the trade,
Just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Viet Cong.
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Well, come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Vietnam.
Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
Send 'em off before it's too late.
Be the first one on your block
To have your boy come home in a box.
And it's one, two, three
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.
Peace
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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I should have checked before I made that last post, NW you got to it fist but you know I too am firmly committed to non violence; the thing I am continually contemplating is how to effectively convey this to the people that most need to hear it.
Sorry, this isn’t the thread for this; I’d like to say I would like to see two threads kept going for a while “Principles of Non Violence” and “Ethical Maxims” I’ve been giving them a lot of thought and would like to see the brain power here be put to use, not by coming up with why something can’t work, rather to see if a consensus within this small group could be achieved and if so ideas can be fomented on ways to affect change.
LOL are my goals too lofty? I don’t know but I have to say I have always thought of this place as a neat little think tank.
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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Not far from the railway station in Penrith?
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Perhaps they are there but are just not getting the media coverage. I forget how many turned out to protest the Republican National Convention in New York a while back.
It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
~Phil Ochs "I Aint Marching Anymore"
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