|
|
|
timmy
|
 |
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
|
|
|
Elsewhere on the board we have two diametrically opposed views. These interest me, because I subscribe to neither.
Eldon has posted a parody of Hattie McDaniel, and actress of whom I had never heard, speaking in what I would expect to have seen in "Uncle Tom's Cabin".
Marc has commented about it suggesting that it is inappropriate.
I do not have the US perspective on black people and their treatment. It was a source of major surprise to me that I was happily at school with black kids while the US still had segregation.
So this interests me. We have the world here. How do folks perceive the topic? is this characterisation distasteful, amusing, funny, offensive?
I'm not "picking on" either poster. I'd just like to expand my knowledge of attitudes. After all, I come from an oppressed minority and I am a second generation UK immigrant.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
|
|
|
As I see it, the discussion is about whether using a parody of the stereotype "Mammy" in Gone With the Wind is appropriate in today's climate. When the movie was released the style was accepted. Today one might be unable to release the same movie using that style. Or might one?
And this, is the parody an appropriate thing for today and in this location?
Eldon, please do not feel attacked. It's great that you raised this, even by accident (as a topic I mean).
[Updated on: Tue, 29 January 2008 16:39]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dear Timmy,
I think there were two points to it. One may have been the racial one, the other was whether it was proper to add words to a picture of someone, especially if the words were inappropriate.
I'm not too bothered about the racial one. I really like 'black' (meaning all shades actually) people (I've had sex with some) and if they are treated just the same as everyone else then I think that is fine.
And I'm not one for political correctness and got thrown out of the local AIDS charity volunteers for that reason. But I do think it might be naughty to add words to a picture that would faze the people pictured if they saw them.
So get permission or use dead people.
What do others think?
Love,
Anthony
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
|
|
|
The picture is Hattie McDaniel, though. And she died in 1952
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
JimB
|
 |
Likes it here |
Registered: December 2006
Messages: 349
|
|
|
It seems to me that what Marc was objecting to was attaching the picture to the words. The roles she played employed that very manner of speech and I find nothing to object to. Some, perhaps many, may object to the manner of speech depicted but the fact is there are many who speak just that way. I find it no different than an accurate portrayal of a native Italian or Pole speaking English.
Eldon certainly didn't find anything wrong with his post, otherwise he wouldn't have put it on the board. It is likely something common in the area of the country where he lives and amoungst his peers.
JimB
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
 |
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
JimB wrote:
> It seems to me that what Marc was objecting to was attaching the picture to the words. The roles she played employed that very manner of speech and I find nothing to object to. Some, perhaps many, may object to the manner of speech depicted but the fact is there are many who speak just that way. I find it no different than an accurate portrayal of a native Italian or Pole speaking English.
Actually no... I objected to the speech as it reflects poorly on the black community today... It is not nice to make fun of a people nor is it nice to, by way of negative stereotypical implication deride a people.
>
> Eldon certainly didn't find anything wrong with his post, otherwise he wouldn't have put it on the board. It is likely something common in the area of the country where he lives and amoungst his peers.
As you are more than likely correct that racial bigotry and related abuses such as this sort of thing probably is common in the area where he comes from, it nonetheless is not right. It is not how the white boys would expect to be treated there, and that fact makes it as valid for the blacks.
>
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
|
|
|
I want to bring a different perspective to this.
My own heritage is as the son of an immigrant who ran from Hitler after his country welcomed the Germans in 1938. Krystalnacht terrified the jews and those who did not or could not run were interred and often did not survive either harsh conditions or were slaughtered.
Against that background I am not at all concerned to see portrayals of Shylock, Fagin or to hear stereotypical pseudo-Jewish vernacular used in comedy or villification.
"Ah," you might say. "Being black is different."
But it truly is not. My people were used as slaves, too. Mine were systematically slaughtered. Mine had atrocities committed upon them. And mine are ethnically identifiable (the larger nose, the heritage of circumcision [not obvious in the USA of course]), the strange headgear.
Go ahead and post a Jewish Mother's diatribe and it will not offend me, and probably will not offend anyone else.
So why is the "Mammy-style" diatribe offensive?
Black people are just people with different pigmentation. They aren't special enough to single out for protection either because of that or because of their unfortunate history.
I doubt that black folks take extra special offence at things unless they have an expectation of compensation (set by stereotyopical Jewish lawyers, no doubt!)
I'm not arguing for the sake of it. I really do want to know
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I found nothing objectionable about Eldon's post. My only thought after wading through it was: "I do wish he had offered a translation into English"!
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gone with the Wind is still shown even today and is considered a classic. Hattie Mcdaniel was considered one of the top black actrisses of her time. It is obvious that she was not offended by having to speak in that maner. Another Actor, Step and Fetchit, worked with Shirley Temple and used that form of speech. Mostly it is an exagerated form of Soutern Speech. If you go into the hills of Apalacia you will still find people who speak this way. I have a friend in school who uses the word Hain't, its the proper pronounciation of the word Ain,t. But you will only find it used in the south. Actually a study was done and they found that people in the remote south spoke closer to true English that the rest of the country. One of the reasons for this is that the south was mainly settled by the English, Scotts, and Irish. So Im not offended and I dont believe anyone black would be offended. Oh an I have cousins that live in New Orleans and they have a nanny who is black and sure enough she speaks just like that.
Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you......
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
|
|
|
I suspect http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a27zbNyf3x4 is offensive. But I doubt a single person will find it offensive to black folk.
Could Al Jolson black up today and make a career? Probably not, because black people have made it into the limelight themselves.
The show http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show was pleasant and banal. It is unlikely to be popular today, and the black face gimmick was stupid, but not offensive.
Looking at Eldon's post, it was a joke. There is, though, a huge difference between a joke told with malice and a joke told for genuine fun.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
Did I use the word "offensive"? I didn't think I did...
Anyhoo....
I said it was in bad taste....
If we as a conglomeration of people are to move forward we need to put aside the old prejudices. I know these stereotypes make the black friends i have feel badly... I know this because I printed out the "mammy parody" and passed it around a group of about 20 black aquaintences....
All... 100% said that this type of comment, joke, story... whatever hurts their feelings. Some said that they wish these things just wouldnt happen.
Oh, and mixed into the group were professors as well as students.
I know that there was no real malicious intent... but that doesn't mean that the comments do not hurt... and i know Eldon well enough to know he would not intentionally hurt anyone...
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
|
|
|
Sorry. I "over interpreted" the words to synthesise "offensive"
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
|
|
|
Marc wrote:
> All... 100% said that this type of comment, joke, story... whatever hurts their feelings. Some said that they wish these things just wouldnt happen.
It would be really interesting if we could find an (eg) Jewish piece in a similar style and compare that group with the group you sampled already. While I predict entirely different results I could be very surprised by the sample results.
[Updated on: Tue, 29 January 2008 19:48]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
|
|
|
I was chatting to a deep southern friend about this. I used the example of Jews not being in any way upset and blacks being upset by this, and was surprised by the answer.
I definitely need a US perspective to understand this fully, something that is impossible to have.
In the UK our black population has never been discriminated against formally. We had no slavery here, or at least not on the enormous scale that the US had it. Our slave masters had Caribbean operations and thus we were not in the same situation as the USA.
Our black population came here of their own volition when it was stated that our streets were paved with gold and they came to do the jobs that local folk did not want to do.
In the US the black population were imported, owned, segregated, abused, and, when slavery was abolished, were freed with only the skill levels they had acquired during slavery. And then they were discriminated against, segregated, ghettoised, oppressed and much else besides.
Jews, despite persecution, travelled, when able to travel, voluntarily, even when escaping oppression. It was argued that the two examples were not congruent.
That, as far as I can get it, is the background. Please do not ask me to use terms like 'African American', they have no relevance here.
Then it got more interesting.
Because of the slavery backdrop, "anything that brings slavery to the foreground is likely to anger the US blacks." It is thus to be avoided at all costs.
Ok, I can probably understand that, but how long must this special sensitivity last? And isn't this, too, discrimination - not allowing humour?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
|
|
|
But...
We queers, we used to be hanged for being queer. In some nations that still happens. We don't usually mind jokes about queers, nor stereotypes.
So what is really going on here?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Timmy asked how Jewish humour has dealt with the often desperate situation of Jews in an oppressive Christian environment. Traditionally, Jewish humour has tended to be either 'black' in the sense that it mocked the desperate situation in which Jews found themselves, thus - perhaps - making it lighter to bear; or it has tended towards a kind of smug 'one-upmanship' - probably for the same reason.
I offer here a couple of well-known examples, which, I would imagine, many would find offensive. Obviously, my purpose is in no way intended to offend, but only to demonstrate what I have written above. If any here do take offence please accept my apologies in advance.
A rabbi and a protestant pastor find themselves in the same railway carriage. They get to talking about their families and their hopes for the future. The pastor mentions that he hopes that his son will enter theological school and become a pastor too.
"Ah," says the rabbi. "And when he graduates what happens?"
"Hopefully he will become an assistant priest."
"And then what happens?"
"If he is successful he will get a parish of his own."
"And then what happens?"
"If he is successful he might even become a bishop."
"And then what happens?"
"Well, if he is really successful he might even become an archbishop."
"And then what happens?"
The priest then answers in angry desperation, "What do you expect of him? That he be Jesus Christ himself?!"
The rabbi responds, triumphantly, "One of our boys was."
A Jewish father has a young son who is completely unruly and just will not behave. The father has tried every possible Jewish school but every single teacher and head teacher have eventually raised their hands in failure to tame the child. In desperation the father enrolls the child in a Roman Catholic school. A few days later he finds, to his amazement, that his son has become quiet, obedient and respectful. The following day he takes his son to school. In the hallway is an enormous representation of the crucified Christ. In an awesome whisper the boy says, "Dad, see what they do to naughty boys here?"
J F R
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. (Richard Dawkins, 2006)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
marc
|
|
Needs to get a life! |
Registered: March 2003
Messages: 4729
|
|
|
timmy wrote:
>
> Ok, I can probably understand that, but how long must this special sensitivity last? And isn't this, too, discrimination - not allowing humour?
It will last as long as white people dress up in white sheets with pointy hats.
It will last as long as bigots continue to sause it to last.
See, this is noy a black problem... iy is a whiye problem.
Life is great for me... Most of the time... But then I meet people online... Very few are real friends... Many say they are but know nothing of what it means... Some say they are, but are so shallow...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
timmy
|
|
Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13783
|
|
|
The white pointy hat people are insane. Again it's a thing that is alien to the UK. We do have racists, of course we do, but not a club for them!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Honestly IMHO I accept african american people
I really truly do
i just wish they'd stop with the "Yo Nigga what's up " and other cultural BS they do... I'm at fucking school to learn not to be attacked with "african american linguistics"
or other customs... basically you stay where you are I stay where I am. No Problems arise
and if anyone finds offence to that word I'm sorry but that's how it is
[Updated on: Wed, 30 January 2008 23:04] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alas I fear humor as I knew it is dead. Soon the only things allowed to give the punch lines in jokes will be dogs, cats and other beasts. And God help the jokster that gives the color or breed of the animals involved.
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
|
] 
A Place of Safety
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
