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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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Nonetheless, Roger and Michael raise an interesting topic.
Before even considering a sexual relationship (yes, it is unlawful pretty much anywhere, that is not the topic under discussion), look at social relationships. Many adult/child relationships are beneficial; some are absolutely not.
To me that is the right place to start. From the child's perspective, is this social relationship beneficial? What does the adult bring to the relationship that the child needs and is better for receiving from the adult? Is the relationship socially beneficial to the adult? Are the two, together, 'better' in whatever way you choose to define it than each is solo? What is the state of equality of the child vs the adult in the relationship? Is the child enthralled by the adult rather than the friend of the adult? What degree of hero worship is present?
Before there can be any hypothetical consideration about a sexual relationship, surely there must be a positive answer to one or more of those (and other) questions? And surely a sexual relationship need not be, should not be, the inevitable outcome of adult and child relationships?
[This could get very long winded, so I'm leaving it at that for now. I'll add my thoughts on a sexual relationship later.]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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The law has the age of majority at which a person legally a child becomes an adult. But the intellect recognises that an infant differs from a 5 year old, who differs from the 7 year old, and so forth. There are different competences, different understandings, different appreciation of cause and effect.
So, in a relationship, a social relationship, between an adult and a child, are we speaking of 5 vs 55? Of 10 vs 23? Of 17 vs 18 [where the age of majority is 18], of a lad of NW's age when he was seduced vs a lad of his seducer's age?
Before one can define the wisdom, the benefit of a social relationship ought one to define the ages concerned? or ought one not to?
[Updated on: Fri, 12 September 2008 19:42]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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Back to ages, probably.
17 vs 18: Why would it not become sexual? Indeed what is the harm, whether lawful or unlawful?
5 vs 55: Emotionally I see harm, but what, at the age of 5, is a sexual relationship? Physical pain is not part of a positive relationship with a 5 year old, nor is discomfort. Can a 5 year old intellectualise sex?
At what age does the child become intellectually competent (legality notwithstanding) to enter into a sexual relationship (not 'having sex', but a real relationship) with anyone, fellow child or adult?
Michael has said, and NW has effectively said that they, in particular circumstances, enjoyed or wished to enjoy a sexual relationship with an older person. How widespread is that desire? It doesn't hold true for me, am I unusual, are they unusual, or is it all part of a spectrum of age attraction?
Why would a social relationship become sexual anyway? If this is a good social relationship, who introduces sex? Why?
If the adult is, by virtue of their being an adult, 'responsible' for what happens to the child, does that show that there is a power differential between the adult and the child? If there is, does that make it beneficial to either party to make the relationship sexual? Relationships do not start with sex, even though it may happen very soon after saying 'hello'! Realtionships start with knowledge of the other person.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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Except for the fact the heterosexual sex tends to create early and unwanted pregnancy, why shouldn't kids enjoy sex?
If an adult has sex with a child and the child enjoys it, sex of any pain or discomfort free type, legality apart, why is that wrong?
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dang Timmy that's a heck of a lot to bite of in one go.
timmy wrote:
> Nonetheless, Roger and Michael raise an interesting topic.
>
> Before even considering a sexual relationship (yes, it is unlawful pretty much anywhere, that is not the topic under discussion), look at social relationships. Many adult/child relationships are beneficial; some are absolutely not.
>
> To me that is the right place to start. From the child's perspective, is this social relationship beneficial?
What does the adult bring to the relationship that the child needs and is better for receiving from the adult?
Is the relationship socially beneficial to the adult? Are the two, together, 'better' in whatever way you choose to define it than each is solo? What is the state of equality of the child vs the adult in the relationship? Is the child enthralled by the adult rather than the friend of the adult? What degree of hero worship is present?
>
> Before there can be any hypothetical consideration about a sexual relationship, surely there must be a positive answer to one or more of those (and other) questions? And surely a sexual relationship need not be, should not be, the inevitable outcome of adult and child relationships?
>
> [This could get very long winded, so I'm leaving it at that for now. I'll add my thoughts on a sexual relationship later.]
I don't know maybe my ideas on this are just too altruistic, as I think all of this is imposable in our closed society where things that have gone on since time immemorial in many cultures around the world are now hidden and vilified. It has made even the theoretical possibility almost imposable to imagine in the realm of the real (hehe spin on "The Realms of the Unreal") which is what we are talking about.
In the end no matter how right it may have had the potential to be, the dark pal that Abrahamic society cast over this precludes it entirely as far as I can see.
Sorry I'm not making myself clear here!I know what I'm thinking just can't put it together
:-/
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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timmy wrote:
> The law has the age of majority at which a person legally a child becomes an adult. But the intellect recognises that an infant differs from a 5 year old, who differs from the 7 year old, and so forth. There are different competences, different understandings, different appreciation of cause and effect.
>
> So, in a relationship, a social relationship, between an adult and a child, are we speaking of 5 vs 55? Of 10 vs 23? Of 17 vs 18 [where the age of majority is 18], of a lad of NW's age when he was seduced vs a lad of his seducer's age?
>
> Before one can define the wisdom, the benefit of a social relationship ought one to define the ages concerned? or ought one not to?
I think that would depend on the kid. By 10 or 11 I knew what was going on if not everything about the mechanics, and all I lacked at that point was the doing.
I was and knew I was attracted to a friend of my step grandfathers! Had to be fifty any way, but before you all go Ewww let me tell ya he looked very much like Errol Flynn better really to my 10 year old mind anyway.
Some how I never suffered much of and age barrier, it was always more about i felt than anything else.
People will tell you where they've gone
They'll tell you where to go
But till you get there yourself you never really know
Where some have found their paradise
Other's just come to harm
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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arich wrote:
> Dang Timmy that's a heck of a lot to bite of in one go.
It was not meant to be an easy set of questions. I have no idea what the answers are, or whether they differ from what the answers "should be".
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy wrote:
> To me that is the right place to start. From the child's perspective, is this social relationship beneficial? What does the adult bring to the relationship that the child needs and is better for receiving from the adult? Is the relationship socially beneficial to the adult? Are the two, together, 'better' in whatever way you choose to define it than each is solo? What is the state of equality of the child vs the adult in the relationship? Is the child enthralled by the adult rather than the friend of the adult? What degree of hero worship is present?
I can unequivocally state that it IS possible for a child to have a beneficial social relationship with a (presumably unrelated) adult.
A friend of mine "adopted" one of his next-door-neighbours then in her 50s as a "grandmother" when he was aged about 9. He had no living grandparents, and the adult clearly gave him many of the things that the best grandparents do - time, attention, love. Over a couple of years, the other kids in the family, and the parents, gradually adopted her also as a "grandparent". Despite moving house some 200 miles when my friend was about 12, the relationship continued. It continued when he moved abroad to work. It continued, in fact, until the older party died ... some 35 years later.
In general, I think I feel that the danger signs of an adult/child relationship are
where the adult asks the child to conceal the relationship (or aspects of it), which can produce conflict and guilt.
where the adult offers all treats and no guidance/discipline to do unpleasant things like chores and homework (it's a pretty clear indicator of some kind of "grooming")
where the adult (other than in social & family contexts) regularly expects the child to give meeting the adult priority over meeting same-age friends.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13752
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I concur. As a child of 6 or so I had a refuge with a neighbouring couple. He taught me carpentry, she taught me a love of animals. They gave me a place where, while good behaviour was expected, I felt welcome and loved.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Dear arich,
Yes, you are getting incoherent, but I think I understand.
I couldn't tell you (in the sort of words that would have to be used to put it into a law) the difference between acceptable and unforgiveable sexual relations with a child. I'm, perhaps, lucky that I am not tempted to that sort of thing. But I can imagine circumstances where I might think that a particular such relationship was all right. And, of course, I could be wrong too!
Love,
Anthony
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