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The subject is pedophelia and I imagine the author thinks himself an expert, what a horrible thought:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40112145/?gt1=43001
I respect the individual's right to have words published in book form even if I find the subject disgraceful. But I do think Amazon has lost it's way in the book selling business.
With E-Pub becomming a source of concern about underage persons viewing porn without adult supervision, is this not just an example of why those concerns are valid?
If Amazon is seeking to bring condemnation upon itself, possibly hurt their business in a time of economic woe, this ought to light the fuse and eventually blow up in their faces.
[Updated on: Wed, 10 November 2010 21:25]
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I think there are far more disturbing things than Amazon having unsound judgment. Helen A S Popkin had a story to write and she wrote it. Ok. She has set an Internet Army against Amazon."No right thinking person would fail to be outraged!" Well, yes, right thinking people think for themselves. I fail to be outraged.
Adult/child sex outrages us. The tabloid press tells us to be outraged. It sells more copies that way. But we need to look at why it outrages us rather than leap always into condemning it as a matter of course. We are people who can reach conclusions for our own reasons, not because of viral hysteria.
We could find adult/child sex distasteful for many reasons, setting the law, a powerful law, aside. These reasons include- size differential and the potential for injury
- strength differential and the potential for rape
- corruption of the child (this one is hard. what is corruption here?)
- emotional distress caused to the child (but is there distress unless the matter was not consensual?)
- It cannot be consensual, a child cannot consent (they can, though 100% of the implications of consent may be unrealised, but does this actually matter? Most adults are unaware of 100% of the implications of adult/adult sex)
The list is incomplete, it is to make us think.
Adult.child sex is 'undiscussable' because it is said to be wrong by those to whom we delegate the power to make laws by electing them. We consent to this, but we should also discuss it.
Do I support adult/child sex?
Not for myself, not for any child I know, nor for any adult I know. But I don't know everyone. I support pederasty as I understand it was practiced by the ancient greeks and I understand the symposium, too. I do not object to it. And, had I lived at the time, I would doubtless have been pleased to have had an older male mentor, would never have felt I was queer, and would have happily sent my sons into the honour of a symposium.
What I don't support is the climate of the witch hunt.
I think Amazon has made a poor choice of book to sell in today's climate, but I have not read, nor am I likely to read that book. I don't know. And I will not judge from a position of no knowledge.
Amazon has one role only. To make a profit and to render that to its shareholders.
If the book is lawful I support their right to choose to sell it or not to sell it. I'm not boycotting them, nor am I going to buy from them specially. What I'm going to do is to thank you for showing this to me, and move onwards. I'm better informed. I have been made to think. And I come down, as so often, as positively undecided.
[Updated on: Wed, 10 November 2010 21:59]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Let me see if I get this correct Chris: An alleged paedophile writes a how to molest the kiddies guide in paperback which Amazon decides merits stocking for resale.
In the interim, the bloody public loses the plot because the mere mention of ANY human sexuality is now America's third rail. I see...
Of course, the Nazi/fascist Christian organisations will immediately blame this on the fact that Amazon is obviously pushing a "homosexual" agenda which of course we all know that ALL LGBT persons are paedophiles.
Okay, gotcha.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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I said that in so many more words. Bloody reporters, always shortening things!
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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No worries, the book notice is gone.
It seems Amazon, after making numerous statements about protecting the First Ammendment rights of an author, has withdrawn the book or at least killed the advertising.
As you say, Brody, it's all about the money.
Age appears to be best in four things; old wood best to burn, old wine to drink, old friends to trust, and old authors to read. (Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626)
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DesDownunder
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Likes it here |
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: September 2010
Messages: 127
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Don't worry about the reporter Timmy, there are somethings he can't shorten.
I am glad you said what you did because I agree with you.
I would however add that there is some additional information on the process of what happens at puberty, particularly in the human brain.
One reference: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/11/14/1163266550289.html
I hasten to add there are other references but this one should suffice.
In short, puberty is a time when we humans are subject to not only our reproductive systems maturing but also, so are our cognitive and emotional capacities.
This knowledge makes it extremely difficult to justify an older - younger sexual relationship prior to say about 16 years of age. Simply, the young person will not have the emotional maturity to handle the sexual side of the relationship without great care and understanding, and it is fraught with misunderstanding.
Sexual relationship in the same age bracket does not pose the same threat so long as force is not involved.
Ancient Greece, in one reference I read, maintained that a 16 year old boy was expected to select a male suitor who acts as a mentor. They might become physically involved, but in any case were regarded as "lovers."
(There are certainly other historians who think the age of the boy was at least in some places, younger. It might also be mentioned that the older man would often begin the mentoring during puberty, but not proffer the boy sexually until he was 16, and then only if requested.)
Nevertheless, two things are immediately apparent to my mind.
1. The emotional and cognitive disruption at puberty, may well be the precipitant for some of the vulnerability that makes 11-15 year olds very susceptible to bullies. The emotional vulnerability could influence hapless actions.
2. Religious indoctrination should be banned forthwith before the age of 16 on the grounds that the child's mind is being molested beyond, its ability to understand, the boundaries of reason, and indeed is destructive to the full mature development of the child to cope with sex and reality.
Looking at both of these, we can see how dangerous child molestation is prior to puberty having run its course.
In the case of #2 it can be said that the witch-hunt should be extended to those in the church who are teaching scripture to kids before puberty, as well as those who are 'preying' on the young sexually.
I must reveal that I was lucky enough to have had an older mentor who would not touch me until I was 16 and then only after I had demonstrated that I had determined my sexuality before I met him. (but that is another story.)
We have a long way to go before we learn how to raise our children so they can be free to determine and accept who they are, and how they develop, without prejudice to their potential as fully mature and loving human beings.
DesDownunder
Call me naive if you want, but life without trust in the goodness of others would be intolerable.
Religious indoctrination: It gets better, without it.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It is the arbitrariness of the age of 16 that interests me. I can't argue for the age or against it, I just find it arbitrary and pretty much not related to onset or completion of puberty.
It looks more to me to be the youngest age heterosexual men can get away with shagging nubile young girls 
The advantage of shagging nubile young boys is, of course, that it is damnably hard to get them pregnant.
[Updated on: Fri, 12 November 2010 23:58]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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DesDownunder
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Likes it here |
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: September 2010
Messages: 127
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16 is not arbitrary at all. Most of the effects of the sexual component of puberty have stabilised by the age of 16. This also ties in with the claims that Ancient Greece had 16 as the age of choosing a suitor as a mentor-lover. Modern societies are not as open to discuss such matters with their children, and I quite happy to acknowledge that culture influences the choice on age of consent. Let me try to elaborate on why I see the age of consent at 16 as appropriate.
I have been unable to find the old reference which proffers the idea that psychologically, a 16 year old is capable of not being subject to the degree of trauma that a person is prone to suffer (catastrophically) between the ages of 11-15 in sexual activity.
I think 16 is pretty obviously an appropriate age for self determination of sexual relationships, i.e., age of consent, given the references in the article on the effects of puberty.
It's not a matter of getting children pregnant, it's a matter of the psychological damage done when a child has not yet developed sufficient capacity for cognitive and emotional stability in the context of this modern world and its cultures. Whilst maturity is not complete when puberty slows down, the 16 year old is not subject to the same degree of mental and emotional fog that occurs during the years of the puberty process (11-15).
Puberty is not an overnight change, it is a process that takes time (years) to complete. Adolescence in itself is still in evidence up to the mid-twenties in modern cultures.
Molesting a child sexually or mentally can have severe emotional repercussions. Such molestation, either through religious dogma, or from adult sexual advances is wrong because it harmful to the potential development of the person.
In short, up to the age of 16, the individual is exceptionally vulnerable, both emotionally and mentally. If subjected to either of the forms of molesting mentioned above, the individual may suffer from an extended period of disruption of their development. In the worst scenarios, the effects may be life long, or life determinate, especially if bullying is involved. The situation is even worse where the young teen is torn between dogma and their natural sexual impulses. The extent and duration of such things are related to the cultural influences in which the child is raised.
I have seen the case of a man in his thirties having to undergo extended treatment (since puberty) for the effects of the torment of his very strict religious upbringing and his sexual awakening. He didn't even get as far as knowing what his sexuality was. He had, in his mind, confused the guilt of the crucifixion with the shame of his own ejaculation. His torment led him to masturbation with nails driven through his hands. You may have seen festivals of nearly similar events in Latin countries during Easter.
How people cope with even moderate conflicts is very dependent on the individual case.
There are, of course additional factors of family and cultural influences which may be equally as detrimental to growth and development.
I repeat: We have a long way to go before we learn how to raise our children so they can be free to determine and accept who they are, and how they develop, without prejudice to their potential as fully mature and loving human beings.
Recognising the dangers of the vulnerability during puberty should be of assistance.
What we can do about religious indoctrination is anyone's guess, but I have no doubt of its damage. Similarly we should regard sexual predators of children before they have a stability of maturity as similarly, damaging.
In both instances 16 seems like the safe age for consent until we have done away with superstitions and learned to treat children with respect as young people fully capable of coping with appropriate sexual knowledge. After all its rather difficult to imagine our caveman ancestors trying to hide sexual activity from their young. But then you'd first have to admit we evolved from them.
So from the available information in this day and age, we can say earlier than 16 puts the teen in their very vulnerable "fog" period, later than 16 seems somewhat unnecessarily restrictive, (and also doomed to failure.)
Same age (younger than 16) peer group sexual experiences within no more than two years of each other, seems to fall in what is termed natural experimentation with minimal harm, provided force is not a component.
I must also state that I have seen a number of young male couples who have been lovers since their early teens, and who are now enjoying their mid life crises together. So things are changing and for the better. It will happen sooner without those who impose their religious beliefs on others. In fact I will say it gets better...without them.
However to get back to the book sales at Amazon, I doubt whether my posts here would meet with any more approval than that book.
DesDownunder
Call me naive if you want, but life without trust in the goodness of others would be intolerable.
Religious indoctrination: It gets better, without it.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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Actually, that was a balanced video. I was surprised. I expected it to scream.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13751
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It is always possible that Amazon did nothing at all and the author reconsidered offering it for sale.
The ABC News report Brody has posted states that the bool advises people to stay within the law. Now, for all one may find paedophilia abhorrent, that advice is entirely correct (as reported).
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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What are they thinking???? 
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Re: What are they thinking???? (ABCNews Report-Video) 
