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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?
Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68540] Tue, 15 July 2014 20:55 Go to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13759



I am having a discussion with a new friend about sexual abuse. He and I have views which intersect, but which are not congruent.

Let me pose some questions, none of which are intended to limit the discussion.
  • Is sex between an adult and a child (by whatever definition you choose) abuse?
  • Is sexual abuse always physical?
  • Does harm have to be done (physical, emotional) for it to be sexually abusive?
  • If it was by mutual consent at the time but is deeply regretted by one party later, is that sexual abuse?
  • If the act was not mutually enjoyable start to finish, is that sexual abuse?
  • Does the age of consent define what is and is not sexual abuse?

I can go on with the questions for ages. They are to provide a partial foundation for discussion. The way I have phrased the questions is arbitrary and does not represent a held viewpoint. They are just questions. There are other questions. Ask them and answer them freely.





Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68542 is a reply to message #68540] Thu, 17 July 2014 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ian John Copeland is currently offline  Ian John Copeland

Toe is in the water
Location: South East
Registered: December 2012
Messages: 33



Quote:
timmy wrote on Tue, 15 July 2014 20:55I am having a discussion with a new friend about sexual abuse. He and I have views which intersect, but which are not congruent.

Let me pose some questions, none of which are intended to limit the discussion.
  • Is sex between an adult and a child (by whatever definition you choose) abuse?

Always, 

  • Is sexual abuse always physical?

I can imagine some terrible harm arriving from say forcing a minor to watch a porno video so this would be classed as abuse

  • Does harm have to be done (physical, emotional) for it to be sexually abusive?

The harm may not come out for years later so the abuse is abuse even if no harm at the time

  • If it was by mutual consent at the time but is deeply regretted by one party later, is that sexual abuse?

It was abuse at the time, there is no such thing as consent when a minor is involved if one were to be in a situation where a minor actively wanted sex then it is the duty of the adult to decline in the best manner possible

  • If the act was not mutually enjoyable start to finish, is that sexual abuse?

See above
  • Does the age of consent define what is and is not sexual abuse?

Legally yes, but there are some over the age of consent in some countries who could be harmed by a relationship with a significantly older person.  But equally some a few years younger are perfectly capable of making the right decision as to whether or not it is a good idea. So age of consent is for guidance, I hope based on common sense rather than an absolute line in the sand.  The recent cases in the UK seem to suggest that abuse can happen over the age of consent where there is a degree of one sided power involved, at the same time there have also been cases where the police have rightly turned a blind eye to two consenting minors having a sexual relationship where no long term harm is detected.

I can go on with the questions for ages. They are to provide a partial foundation for discussion. The way I have phrased the questions is arbitrary and does not represent a held viewpoint. They are just questions. There are other questions. Ask them and answer them freely.



--Well that was my money's worth, rereading it, I do seem to have taken a fairly hard line view on this, apologies to those who do not agree with me!

Ian



Visit my Blog: http://thepaintheagony.blogspot.co.uk/
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68544 is a reply to message #68540] Fri, 18 July 2014 06:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Smokr is currently offline  Smokr

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  • Is sex between an adult and a child (by whatever definition you choose) abuse?
    Almost always. "Adult" and "Child" may differ in different situations, but someone old enough to be "Adult" having sex with someone young enough to be a "Child" is generally "Sexual Abuse," though the definition of "Sexual Abuse" is also prone to variation. A 19 y.o. messing around with a 15 y.o. long-time friend is vastly different from a 19 y.o. who forced/cajoled/tricked/drugged a 15 y.o. stranger or mere acquaintance into a sexual activity.
  • Is sexual abuse always physical?
    Nope.
  • Does harm have to be done (physical, emotional) for it to be sexually abusive?
    No. Just because no 'harm' was done doesn't mean it wasn't sexually abusive. What if the 'child' was coerced or drugged? I would consider that sexual abuse, though no actual 'harm' was done.
  • If it was by mutual consent at the time but is deeply regretted by one party later, is that sexual abuse?
    Yup. If it was, it still is. If it wasn't, it still isn't. Regret doesn't change the facts.
  • If the act was not mutually enjoyable start to finish, is that sexual abuse?
    Yup. So long as it was abusive, pleasure doesn't change the facts. On the other hand, it could have had moments where there wasn't mutual pleasure and it still not be abuse.
  • Does the age of consent define what is and is not sexual abuse?
    The legal age of consent determines if it was legally sexual abuse. The moral age of consent determines if it was morally sexual abuse. Age can determine, but should not absolutely determine it. Consent, ability to understand consent, willingness, conditions, etc. should be far more important in that determination.


Now, let me pose some questions, none of which are intended to limit the discussion either. Feel free to answer one, some, or all.

18+ brother finds 14 y.o. brother masturbating in a dangerous or unproductive way. Is it sexual abuse if...
A) Older brother demonstrates safer or better way on himself without touching his brother?
B) Older brother demonstrates safer or better method by using his hands to guide his brother's hands without touching his brother's privates.
C) Older brother uses his hands directly on younger brother's genitals?
D) If it became mutual masturbation?
E) If it became a frequent occurrence?

Under-aged minor coerces 18+ neighbor, relative, or friend into sexual situation with blackmail or other means? Is older party guilty of sexual abuse? Is younger party guilty of reverse sexual abuse?

Older male watching someone's kids for a night checks on kids late at night and finds teen using an item sexually in an unsafe manner. Is it sexual abuse when...
A) He gives advice and guidance without touching the teen and then leaves the teen to it.
B) He demonstrates the proper use of the item on teen momentarily then leaves teen to it.
C) He demonstrates the proper use of the item on the teen until the teen reaches orgasm.

12 y. o. boy sneaks into 18 y.o. brother's room when he has a 19 y.o. friend sleeping over. He finds them mutually masturbating. He says if they show him how he won't tell, or else he will tell. They show him. Is it sexual abuse when...
A) They demonstrate on each other without touching the 12 y.o. who then leaves without exposing his privates.
B) The 18 y.o. brother demonstrates by doing it to his 12 y.o. brother momentarily and then the 12 y.o. leaves.
C) The 19 y.o. friend demonstrates on the 12 y.o. momentarily and then the 12 y.o. leaves.
D) The 19 y.o. friend demonstrates on the 12 y.o. then performs oral sex on the 12 y.o. at the 12 y.o.'s request.
E) The three of them engage in multiple sexual activities over the course of the night and the 12 y. o. is willing, cooperative, and asks to do things.
F) The 12 y.o., now an adult, files molestation charges against the then 19 y.o., even though the 12 y.o. continued to willingly and on his own initiative sneak into his brother's room when the 19 y.o. stayed over and they engaged in such activities many times over a considerable period of time.

Adult over 18 meets someone online at an adult-only sexually oriented site and they exchange nude selfies. The other party turns out to be under 18, though they claimed to be at least 18 by joining the site. Is that child sexual abuse or soliciting a minor or another such crime?

High school teacher falls for under-aged student and they have a long-term loving relationship. Is that sexual abuse?

What if years later they have a fight and break up, and the former student, now an adult of course, files molestation/sexual abuse charges against former teacher? Is that now sexual abuse if it wasn't before?

Minor child kisses minor child of opposite sex on playground on a dare. Is that sexual abuse?

Minor child kisses minor child of same sex on playground on a dare. Is that sexual abuse?

During gym showers, one student teases another about genital size/shape etc. Is that sexual abuse?

A group of teens engage in sexual conduct over a period of time. When one or more reach age of maturity under local law, and they continue with sexual activities with the rest of the teens still under age, is that sexual abuse?
Or, to simplify, a 17 and a 15 y.o. have a relationship. When the 17 y.o. turns 18 and the other is still 15, is it now illegal for them to have sex?

[Updated on: Fri, 18 July 2014 06:21]




raysstories.com
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68546 is a reply to message #68544] Sun, 20 July 2014 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ian John Copeland is currently offline  Ian John Copeland

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Location: South East
Registered: December 2012
Messages: 33



"Quote:"
Smokr wrote on Fri, 18 July 2014 06:14Goodness what a lot of detailed questions! Let me see how I get on with this version of the moral maze! 
Now, let me pose some questions, none of which are intended to limit the discussion either. Feel free to answer one, some, or all.

18+ brother finds 14 y.o. brother masturbating in a dangerous or unproductive way. Is it sexual abuse if...
A) Older brother demonstrates safer or better way on himself without touching his brother?
B) Older brother demonstrates safer or better method by using his hands to guide his brother's hands without touching his brother's privates.
C) Older brother uses his hands directly on younger brother's genitals?
D) If it became mutual masturbation?
E) If it became a frequent occurrence?

 I think the best answer alas is to beat a hasty retreat (as most teens that age would be mortified to be seen in action by a brother that much older) and direct him at a later stage to an age appropriate safe guidance page on the internet.  The upmost caution would need to be exercised and if the kidbrother shows any signs of being upset, retreat and advise afterwards!


Under-aged minor coerces 18+ neighbor, relative, or friend into sexual situation with blackmail or other means? Is older party guilty of sexual abuse? Is younger party guilty of reverse sexual abuse 

Safest answer is to report it immediately afterwards as the kid could try the same approach with another kid his/her age, who you report it to depends on how you think that party will respond, if that party responds inappropriately then someone else needs to be involved.  In real life there may be a credibility issue about claiming coercion in the first place

Older male watching someone's kids for a night checks on kids late at night and finds teen using an item sexually in an unsafe manner. Is it sexual abuse when...
A) He gives advice and guidance without touching the teen and then leaves the teen to it.
B) He demonstrates the proper use of the item on teen momentarily then leaves teen to it.
C) He demonstrates the proper use of the item on the teen until the teen reaches orgasm.

12 y. o. boy sneaks into 18 y.o. brother's room when he has a 19 y.o. friend sleeping over. He finds them mutually masturbating. He says if they show him how he won't tell, or else he will tell. They show him. Is it sexual abuse when...
A) They demonstrate on each other without touching the 12 y.o. who then leaves without exposing his privates. Nope they have to stop immediately and if necessary explain the problem to whoever he threatens to tell, major problems all round if family are not aware older boy is gay in real life but then real life can be messy
B) The 18 y.o. brother demonstrates by doing it to his 12 y.o. brother momentarily and then the 12 y.o. leaves.Ditto
C) The 19 y.o. friend demonstrates on the 12 y.o. momentarily and then the 12 y.o. leaves.ditto
D) The 19 y.o. friend demonstrates on the 12 y.o. then performs oral sex on the 12 y.o. at the 12 y.o.'s request.This sounds like a porno movie!
E) The three of them engage in multiple sexual activities over the course of the night and the 12 y. o. is willing, cooperative, and asks to do thingseDitto (a career as a writer director is coming your way)
F) The 12 y.o., now an adult, files molestation charges against the then 19 y.o., even though the 12 y.o. continued to willingly and on his own initiative sneak into his brother's room when the 19 y.o. stayed over and they engaged in such activities many times over a considerable period of time. Ditto

Adult over 18 meets someone online at an adult-only sexually oriented site and they exchange nude selfies. The other party turns out to be under 18, though they claimed to be at least 18 by joining the site. Is that child sexual abuse or soliciting a minor or another such crime?

Should have stopped as soon truth came out

High school teacher falls for under-aged student and they have a long-term loving relationship. Is that sexual abuse?
Yep and an abuse of power, Teacher should have brought things to an end as soon as he/she realised that it might head this way.  Trainee teachers are warned of the dangers these days

What if years later they have a fight and break up, and the former student, now an adult of course, files molestation/sexual abuse charges against former teacher? Is that now sexual abuse if it wasn't before?

Minor child kisses minor child of opposite sex on playground on a dare. Is that sexual abuse? No unless something inappropriate happens (fondling inappropriately for instance, a verbal 'slap on the wrist;' is probably the least harmful response)

Minor child kisses minor child of same sex on playground on a dare. Is that sexual abuse? As above

During gym showers, one student teases another about genital size/shape etc. Is that sexual abuse? No bullying unless obviously in a sexual context

A group of teens engage in sexual conduct over a period of time. When one or more reach age of maturity under local law, and they continue with sexual activities with the rest of the teens still under age, is that sexual abuse?
Or, to simplify, a 17 and a 15 y.o. have a relationship. When the 17 y.o. turns 18 and the other is still 15, is it now illegal for them to have sex?  If thes ages are close and there is no 'dominance' issue then this is a case where a rigid age of consent law rigidly applied is an ass.  Mind you an 18yo and 15yo is probably too big an age gap not 17/18 maybe same or +/- year in age is where it can be said that there was no dominance issue.  The test is 'what good comes out of a criminal case' it might be more harmful than doing nothing or just an informal warning to cease and desist.  Rigidity of law enforcement and over reaction is what needs to be avoided as is the case in countries like Canada which differentiates between adults engaging in sex with minors and cases involving two minors.

Well those are my thoughts!

Ian


--

[Updated on: Sun, 20 July 2014 13:10]




Visit my Blog: http://thepaintheagony.blogspot.co.uk/
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68549 is a reply to message #68540] Mon, 21 July 2014 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13759



I am here with another question.

"If I am the one who considers that I have been abused sexually, have I been abused?"

I am deliberately not being specific about any acts that may have taken place



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68550 is a reply to message #68540] Tue, 22 July 2014 02:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray is currently offline  Ray

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Location: Sydney, Australia
Registered: July 2014
Messages: 26



Hi Guys. 

I am the one T was conversing with off-line, and I come from a different direction. I have been more concerned with the effects than definitions because of involvement in therapy groups with men who are survivors of childhood sexual abuse. It may be entertaining to debate various permutations of ages, age differences, and ages of consent, but I prefer to concentrate on the practical aspects of recovery from abuse. When people need therapy to recover decades later, then you can be sure it was abuse at the time, whatever happened. Perhaps a catalogue of what happened to such people can define what abuse is, one may think?

Legal definitions, which have changed enormously since I was a kid, serve to identify and judge the perpetrators, but they are not there to help the victims.

It has been interesting to note that the original questions on this Forum were followed initially by more questions and not answers. Most of the uncertainty comes in with borderline cases and so that is where the discussion arises. A clear case of abuse is recognized as such by everybody, and no discussion is necessary (I resist giving graphic examples). This reflects the "state of the snowball" we find ourselves in at the moment. For the last few decades, it has become OK to talk about sex, then same-sex relationships, but we are just beginning with opening up about sexual abuse. Cases in the media are multiplying, but have you noticed that there is still little talk of what the victims go through? This needs to be opened up soon, and I plan to play my part.

What I have learned from listening to many survivors is that there will never be effective definitions based on age or age difference. Abuse comes from imbalance of power, which is related to misuse of a position of physical or emotional strength. This does not have to be deliberate. It often isn't, which explains the lack of understanding amongst many perpetrators for what they have done. Boys mature at different times and different rates, meaning what is an enjoyable escapade for one 12 year-old may be abuse for a different 15 year-old. 

I do have a few responses to the questions posed, though:

(1) Is sex between an adult and a child (by whatever definition you choose) abuse?  Yes, but the particulars of individual cases need to be considered. I like the commonly used suggestion that a five year age gap should be treated as significant. Otherwise we stumble into the common cases of 19 loves 16. A relationship between 15 and 13 can be a whole lot more abusive - depending on what happens, and on the emotional state of 13.

(2) Is sexual abuse always physical? NO. it is the emotional effects that men battle with later. Often they don't even know the cause until it is extracted by psychotherapy. They may not even know initially whether it was physical or not.

(3) Does harm have to be done (physical, emotional) for it to be sexually abusive? I guess this one is aimed at early love affairs of mid-teens. Apply the five-year rule to except these and would tend towards saying yes to this one, because emotional harm is commoner than people think.

(4) If it was by mutual consent at the time but is deeply regretted by one party later, is that sexual abuse? I think this one is replete with misunderstandings. Does "mutual consent" mean the kid didn't complain at the time? That commonly happens but overlooks the power imbalance. My answer must be "yes" in MOST cases, although I can imagine claims being made for jilted lovers getting back at partners after tiffs. Again, individual case characteristics are important.

(5) If the act was not mutually enjoyable start to finish, is that sexual abuse? I suspect that happens too commonly to be useful - abuse, by whatever definition, must remain a minority occurrence.

(6) Does the age of consent define what is and is not sexual abuse? Not very well. I sense that this is the question of the six that prompts the most entertaining thoughts and responses (and further, ever more contorted questions). But the definition by pure age overlooks important differences in maturity between people of the same age. It works for large age differences, which lead to a power imbalance, but not for small ones.

In reply to T's most recent question, I would now turn the spit: you may have been abused even though you don't know it yet!
But we can't use just self-definition of abuse, otherwise the "lover's tiff" scenario above takes the overhand.

I found myself in agreement with most of what Ian had to say.

Ray
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68551 is a reply to message #68549] Tue, 22 July 2014 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dgt224 is currently offline  dgt224

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Location: USA
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Messages: 81



"timmy wrote on Mon, 21 July 2014 12:30"
I am here with another question.

"If I am the one who considers that I have been abused sexually, have I been abused?"

I am deliberately not being specific about any acts that may have taken place

--
Perhaps. Perhaps not. In the absence of the omitted specifics it is impossible to say.

If you consider that you have been abused sexually, then it is pretty safe to say that you feel abused. But since we don't seem to be able to settle on a universal definition of what precisely constitutes abuse, it's difficult to say whether the unspecified acts would fall within that unknown definition. And the nature of sexual abuse is such that details can be critical. If a 19-year-old and a 16-year-old become sexually involved, and the younger partner later claims to have been sexually abused, the law (at least here in the U.S.A.) would almost certainly agree that abuse has occurred. But make that a 16-year-old body builder and a physically handicapped 19-year-old and the reality might well be quite different.

And those cases also depend on the difference between someone considering him/herself to have been abused and someone claiming to have been abused. Claims may differ from beliefs, and beliefs may differ from reality.
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68553 is a reply to message #68551] Tue, 22 July 2014 07:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Smokr is currently offline  Smokr

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How's this?
It's sexual abuse, when years later the now-adult child is seeking help dealing with it. Usually. I can see some people needing help dealing with a sexual encounter while underaged that occurred with a peer as well. Something mutual at the time, but that led to problems dealing with it later when they came to see it as something awful as seen through that person's later experiences and lessons.
Two prepubescent kids show and touch experimentally once. Is that abuse? I can't think so. Yet it causes the now-adult to look back and feel guilt and remorse, even to the point of needing help to deal with the memories and feelings it left behind that he never dealt with or even recognized previously. Was it abuse, though? It caused deep anxiety and troubles later, but still, did one abuse the other? Did they abuse each other?
People are so varied in so many ways. What one person deals with and has no problems with may well put another into a state of depression to the point of suicide.
A person can feel that they were sexually abused when in fact they were merely looked at or overheard a conversation not aimed at them in any way.
Wonderful creatures, we humans, but so freaking complicated and delicate. Irrationally delicate at times - both mentally and physically.

When I was 12, I followed two older boys, probably 14 or 15, into the woods at the lake. I was sort of attracted to them I believe, but I really didn't know what I was feeling or what was happening to/with me at the time or even for sure now. I remember being weirdly interested in their bodies and them. Somehow. Someway. They didn't like the little kid following them of course, so I did. They looked at a Playboy magazine and masturbated themselves. I was stunned. I'd never seen such a thing before. I found the magazine where they hid it and took it with me. I was looking at it and playing with myself like I had seen the older boys doing. A girl, at least 15 or 16, quite possibly older, found me. She talked to me, showed me how to do things to her with my hands, then performed oral on me.
Was I abused?
I have no regrets about it, and if I bumped into her today, I'd love to hug her and thank her, and tell her it didn't prevent me from liking guys. Though I did get the chance to use what she taught me, and they were seemingly great lessons.

I have to think that there is never going to be a universally recognized definition of abuse. Some commonly held ones, for sure.
Any time someone forces an unwilling someone else into a sexual situation using coercion, force, or other means. Period.
Now comes the many shades of gray. Errr, grey. Oh hell. Whatever.

[Updated on: Tue, 22 July 2014 07:42]




raysstories.com
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68554 is a reply to message #68550] Tue, 22 July 2014 10:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13759



"Ray wrote on Tue, 22 July 2014 03:52"

In reply to T's most recent question, I would now turn the spit: you may have been abused even though you don't know it yet!
But we can't use just self-definition of abuse, otherwise the "lover's tiff" scenario above takes the overhand.



--

I don't think I have been abused because I suspect it would have been memorable in some manner. I really don't count the idiot maths teacher who used to stroke our bums when we were eight when we got a sum right and squeeze our bollocks when wrong while we were stood at his desk, because it was simply unpleasant to be squeezed and pleasant to be stroked. It was only by dredging my memory some years ago that I recalled him.

I don't think my seven year old schoolfriend who was a 'witness' at a trial of a gentleman who had "Tried to bite [his] willy off" felt, feels, abused particularly, except, probably, by the court process in 1959. In a great many ways total innocence is a protection against feeling abused.

I do wonder, sometimes, whether the weird childhood games we played of grabbing and squeezing your friend's balls in a gladiatorial contest was abuse, but I doubt it. I was as much aggressor as aggressed in this contest of pain tolerance.

I felt distaste with a schoolmaster when I was 13 when he told me that teachers of Greek like small boys with blond hair and blue eyes (like me), because the concept of an older person propositioning me (even in jest) was something that disgusted me, the more so a year later when he asked me to be his "Call boy" which he probably meant as running errands and I took to be the male equivalent of call girl because of the prior tacky 'quip'.

I have never been coerced or forced into sexual activity, and I have never coerced or forced anyone. In sexual matters I am remarkably unpartnered and quite innocent in my actions, though my fantasies are another land entirely.

I wonder if I abused, though, the boy I adored, because of my adoration and I feel some guilt over that thought. I feel I probably abused him by my puppy-like devotion and presence, and by touching him whenever I could. I have wished to apologise to him for that, but he will not allow me to meet him and talk to him. I wonder, therefore, if he considers, too, that I may have abused him, simply because of the refusal. Our contact, his and mine, was social only.

I was, once, a bully. There I did abuse. As a young child I was also bullied. I suspect being bullied caused me to find weaker victims. This was physical and emotional, never sexual. I never had the odd confusion between the power of the bully and the sexual conquest of another.

I, too, have men's group therapy, but for more social reasons. The others in it have been victimised, but not, I think, sexually abused. I am sure I have never been sexually abused.

[Updated on: Tue, 22 July 2014 21:59]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68557 is a reply to message #68554] Wed, 23 July 2014 05:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Smokr is currently offline  Smokr

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Wait, you Brits had a thing where you grabbed bollocks and squeezed until one gave in?
If so, I owe someone an apology, and probably should consider doing their story, as it might have been somewhat true instead of the complete bollocks I thought it was.
Hah, how punny! Do I get a prize!
I need sleep.




raysstories.com
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68558 is a reply to message #68557] Wed, 23 July 2014 06:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
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Quote:
Smokr wrote on Wed, 23 July 2014 06:12Wait, you Brits had a thing where you grabbed bollocks and squeezed until one gave in?
If so, I owe someone an apology, and probably should consider doing their story, as it might have been somewhat true instead of the complete bollocks I thought it was.
Hah, how punny! Do I get a prize!
I need sleep.


Well, my school (ages 7-13) did. But it's a digression from the thread! I suspect it was not a universal game at all schools.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68560 is a reply to message #68554] Thu, 24 July 2014 09:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray is currently offline  Ray

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Location: Sydney, Australia
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That's not what I meant.
There are many people who are in therapy before they remember many details, even whether they have been abused or not.
If you were to ask them before treatment, they would also say they have never been abused.
One may then think - well, it can't have been that bad then?
But if that is the case, why are they in therapy anyway?
Many cases of abuse are uncovered by psychotherapists who are treating people for symptoms with unknown causes. These symptoms may be dropping out at school, depression, illiteracy, inability to form relationships, and a number of others. The cause then turns out to be sexual abuse as a child. These are the reasons that sex with minors must always be viewed as abuse.
I am not really following the line probably intended here, but I wanted to make that point.

R
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68561 is a reply to message #68560] Thu, 24 July 2014 13:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Messages: 13759



"Ray wrote on Thu, 24 July 2014 10:00"
That's not what I meant.
There are many people who are in therapy before they remember many details, even whether they have been abused or not.
If you were to ask them before treatment, they would also say they have never been abused.
One may then think - well, it can't have been that bad then?
But if that is the case, why are they in therapy anyway?
Many cases of abuse are uncovered by psychotherapists who are treating people for symptoms with unknown causes. These symptoms may be dropping out at school, depression, illiteracy, inability to form relationships, and a number of others. The cause then turns out to be sexual abuse as a child. These are the reasons that sex with minors must always be viewed as abuse.
I am not really following the line probably intended here, but I wanted to make that point.

R

--
I am having therapy at present for a multitude of reasons. I am going tonight. But none of those reasons is because I was abused. One can be in therapy for many reasons. I'm not quite sure where you are heading with this?



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68567 is a reply to message #68561] Sun, 27 July 2014 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray is currently offline  Ray

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This thread got sidelined by concentrating on a side issue. so let's try rescue it:

"For the last few decades, it has become OK to talk about sex, then same-sex relationships, but we are just beginning with opening up about sexual abuse. Cases in the media are multiplying, but have you noticed that there is still little talk of what the victims go through?"

I would add: Does anybody care?

Biting my lip to not rise to the bait, I ask again - any opinions?


Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68568 is a reply to message #68567] Mon, 28 July 2014 07:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I care. I talk about it, though form a position os imperfect knowledge. It is an excellent thing to talk about, though depressing that it takes place to need to be talked about.

The challenege with all one on one situations is, with precision, that they are one on one situations. A child is far less likely to be believed than an adult. Some children have chosen to accuse teachers of sexual assault when evidence shows that nothing happened. Evidence gathering is abusive if the child is unwilling, even if eviudence is present.

Look, also, at Cleveland child abuse scandal, where this short article shows that the mechanism of gathering evidence, the touching of the child's anus and watching for a reflex dilation) was abusive in itself and led to many false positives. This was social workers on a rampage against so called Satanic Abuse. Some of those children were ripped from loving families, unabused, and placed into care, a place where they were then abused.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68569 is a reply to message #68568] Mon, 28 July 2014 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Smokr is currently offline  Smokr

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Many victims don't want to talk about it. They don't want everyone else talking about it.
It's hard to talk about an experience you don't have any experience with, and those who've experienced it don't want to publicly talk about it.
So, there is little discussion about exactly what victims go through.
Most folks don't want to think about it, let alone talk about it.
I've been communicating with a huge number of men who have had sexual experiences as minors who want to get their story told, but they mostly don't see their experience as negative. Those who do see it as something shameful and see it as bad probably don't write asking to have their story told. Only three have written and want to tell of an experience they feel less than happy about. I'm hesitant to publish those, but they want me to.

[Updated on: Mon, 28 July 2014 16:53]




raysstories.com
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68644 is a reply to message #68540] Fri, 10 October 2014 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ashdaw is currently offline  Ashdaw

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When someone has sex with another person and they are both ADULTS and CONSENTING (depending on where you are) then, that is not abuse BUT,

When a person is young and is raped constantly by a family member, that is pure abuse even if the victim persists with being abused.
There is a point when the victim is so confused that they will just give in. It IS still abuse.
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68724 is a reply to message #68644] Sun, 16 November 2014 12:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray is currently offline  Ray

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Smokr: From my experience in therapy groups, the majority of guys who it very definitely bothers are NOT going to tell you about it. I would hate to interpret your response as giving the impression that all is harmless out there, but it does prompt me to do so. People with positive experiences are, of course, willing to tell you about them. There are relatively few written exceptions and I intend to add to those shortly. Most stay silent and can only be heard in closed groups. Personally, I hate all this modern internet stuff that gives the impression that most have always jumped constantly into the beds of others, and that that is the only right way to behave. But I am entertained by the concept that modern 20 year olds recognize their sexual orientation by their reactions to internet porn. 

Ashdaw: the definition of 'adult' is very interesting: legally it NOW means 18. Does that mean when I turn 18 I am suddenly responsible? I wasn't, but it didn't count as 18 then anyway because they moved the goalposts in the meanwhile. Legalities are useless; I was raped about 20 times but I wouldn't have been today. The issue here is that kids who are victims before maturity tend to unknowingly invite abuse later in life (I have now seen this many times from groups). Many 18 year olds are psychologically like 16 year olds. Well, fuck them for being so 'innocent', one could say. But are they innocent?
Confused - there you have it: most are confused as 'adults' after all this crap - and you are right - it is still abuse!

Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68729 is a reply to message #68540] Mon, 17 November 2014 02:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChrisR is currently offline  ChrisR

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Oddly (disgustingly?) enough, the Los Angeles School District attorneys are arguing in court that a 14-year-old girl is old enough to consent to having sex with one of her teachers.

It's not even a question in criminal court, mind you. Fourteen -- even eighteen in cases dealing with a person of trust -- doesn't cut it. The teacher has already been convicted and sentenced. But now that the family is suing for money in civil court, the school district argues that the girl's pattern of behavior and previous experience renders her fully capable of saying "yes" to the man.

The argument has won few if any supporters among the public, and one way or the other will certainly establish case law for future civil trials.

You can read some of the opinion about the situation here:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-consent-mole st-20141114-story.html
Sexual abuses in the UK news right now  [message #68731 is a reply to message #68540] Mon, 17 November 2014 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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In the UK right now we have two very high profile issues, both of which are sexual abuse:

We have the release from prison under licence of Ched Evans, convicted rapist and professional footballer. Evans wishes to return to professional football and is, currently, being allowed to train with, but is not employed by, Sheffield niited Football Club, who are not going public with any decision about employing him. Evans was convicted of raping a woman who was judged by the court to have been too drunk to consent to sex, and thus who did not consent. No consent equals rape when the parties to the encounter are over the age of consent as both were. There is a huge outcry over the potential for Evans to be employed again by this club in particular and in football at all. A large petition against his re-employment increases in size all the time. Supporters of Evans have wished opponents to be raped. A little judicious use of search engines will show you more, much more. I do wonder about the joys of having sex with someone too drunk to participate. It seems to me to be more necrophilia than anything else.

The other case arose out of the Jimmy Savile morass. A man, Nick, has come forward with horrific takes of a major paedophile ring of the nation's powerful and elite, including allegations of murder. The public has less information here than in the Evans case, but the details are substantially more distasteful. The fact that The Daily Mirror and the Daily Mail are covering this story in tabloid detail does not make it any the less likely to have taken place.

Both of these cases are horrible for different reasons, both are most assuredly abuse, and both are hitting our news right now



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #68733 is a reply to message #68729] Mon, 17 November 2014 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ChrisR is currently offline  ChrisR

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By way of a follow-up on the civil case (i.e., punitive money claim) of a 14-year-old girl versus the Los Angeles School District who had sex with her teacher, the school district won the case!

The district's argument was two-fold:
-- The activities between the two took place away from the school and there was no legitimate expectation of protection when the girl voluntarily met the man, and
-- The 14-year-old girl was a willing participant in the activities, and by virtue of her prior exploits was deemed capable of giving consent.

Undoubtedly the case will be appealed up the chain of courts, and it will be intriguing to see if they address the issue or not. It seems that there is indeed a difference between civil and criminal law regarding age of consent in California. But the higher courts could skate past it and rule solely on the issue of the district's requirement to protect students on a 24:7 basis. And just to make it stranger, a school teacher is a mandatory reporting official for child abuse, but in this case would be exempt on the basis of protection against self-incrimination.

As Dickens might say, the law is an ass.
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #69005 is a reply to message #68733] Mon, 02 February 2015 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bisexualguy is currently offline  bisexualguy

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     Going back to Smokr's question some distance above in the thread, specifically this one:

     During gym showers, one student teases another about genital size/shape etc. Is that sexual abuse? No bullying unless obviously in a sexual context

     In my sophomore, junior, and senior years of a United States high school, I was constantly teased about my penis size.  I was called "stud, fourteen, hung, long dick, big dick," and others I don't currently recall.  It started when the gym teacher (who was also the head basketball coach) compared me to a stud horse (referring to seeing me in the shower). Then other kids came up with variations of their own.  I should say I grew a lot in penile size between my freshman and sophomore year.
     I had not yet heard the terms "shower" and "grower."  I was a shower; hanging down 4½-5 inches soft at that time but only growing to about 6-6½ when erect.  (I reached my full penile growth at age 21, having a second growth spurt in college.)  I really WAS hanging down more than most of them, but none of us were erect in the locker room, so a valid comparison was not really possible.  Due to the "foreshortening effect" (where something looks smaller and shorter when the angle of looking is DOWN on something), I thought they were teasing me, but I never thought of it as abuse, even though probably about 10 kids each year in gym class commented on how long my dick was. 
     Had the teasing been malicious, I would have felt it abusive.  But, it seemed more like envy than anything else, and not malicious, so I let it go.
     Interesting thread. 
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #69236 is a reply to message #68540] Mon, 09 March 2015 04:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark

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Certainly some interesting questions.  I'd throw in some thoughts on the questions already asked, except the responses I'd give were pretty well covered by others.  I would throw in some interesting lines of thought, though, based upon Smokr's original response.

Could any of Smokr's setups still be considered abuse/harassment in the brothers (and older brother's friends) scenarios if the older brother was, say, 15-16 years old (instead of 18+), and the younger brother was in the 12-14 age range  (in other words, if both were minors and close in age - by "close in age" I mean, at most, an age difference of no greater than 4 years - and any friends of the older brother had would be minors along the same age range as the older brother)?

And in a bit of a continuation of that, could it be sexual abuse if the two above-mentioned brothers shared a bedroom, and the older boy masturbated in front of the younger without flaunting it or otherwise drawing attention to himself?  Also, if the younger brother approach the older brother with the request to teach him how to masturbate (regardless of whether or not they share a bedroom), could it be abuse if the older brother simply verbally explains it?  Or if the older brother explains by masturbating himself without touching the younger brother?  Or if the older brother explains it to the younger brother, and there's at least some physical contact between the two during the instruction?

Or could it be abuse if, in the babysitter setup, the babysitter was in the 15-16 age range and the "unsafely masturbating" kid of the neighbor kids he was being asked to watch was a boy around age 12?

In short, a lot of these questions center around (or at least seem to center around) adult/adult or adult/youth scenarios.  Could there still be sexual abuse/harassment if the scenario in question occurred between two youth, particularly if the law where they live said that at least one could not legally give consent (I know that in some places in the U.S., minors in the 15-17 age range can generally give legal consent to engage in sexual activity with another person if the other person is also within that same age range)?
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #69438 is a reply to message #68724] Fri, 10 April 2015 02:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ashdaw is currently offline  Ashdaw

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"Ray wrote on Sun, 16 November 2014 23:04"

--I suffered repeated abuse at the hands of my Uncle and a few others. I had photos taken and also was on the Merry-go-round to some unsavory characters. I guess I am not the person to comment on something like the listed topic as I am too involved at the victim level and, I still do not know if I would be different today if the abuse had not happened. I suffered so many issues and even tried suicide at one time but, the pain still in inside and I find as time goes on it doesn't get any better.
Re: Sex: When is it sex, when is it abuse?  [message #69784 is a reply to message #69438] Sun, 07 June 2015 19:59 Go to previous message
Mark

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Here's another one - I am a bit of a fan of advice columns.  A while back I read one where someone wrote in, saying that as a young child they'd played "doctor" with another child the same age (indicating that there had been some "innocent" viewing/touching of private areas), and had never really given it much thought later on.  When the letter writer, many years later (as an adult) told their Significant Other in passing about the events, the SO was aghast, maintaining that what had happened was abuse, even though the letter writer absolutely didn't see it that way.

So is two young kids willingly playing doctor with each other ever abuse, or can it depend on the situation?
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