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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > That bathroom/locker room trash
That bathroom/locker room trash  [message #70686] Wed, 30 December 2015 13:34 Go to next message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13759



A group of concerned Alaskan women are trying to force the repeal of a law which allows folk to take a piss, or a shit. or change their clothes in bathrooms and locker rooms relevant to their gender identities.

Now, since the last thing on my mind is looking at your genitals when I want a piss, and since taking a shit has never ben a spectator sport for me, and since women only have cubicles in their dunnies anyway, I seriously do not see the issue. Unless, of course, their shit smells sweeter than a n M2F trans person's shit.

I guarantee I will try to see your genitals when we change for sport in a locker room. I always have and I always will. I will be unashamedly naked while changing, too. Since I was 14 I have put on a show in the locker room. I am gay and you are, if you are a regular visitor here, likely to be male! You are in my sphere of attraction.

I suspect that an M2F trans person is much more interested in avoiding prurient gaze herself than trying to peek under the towel of some concerned Alaskan woman, though. And, as for safety, do these women seriously expect to be raped in the locker room?

[Updated on: Wed, 30 December 2015 13:34]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: That bathroom/locker room trash  [message #70690 is a reply to message #70686] Wed, 30 December 2015 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark

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Registered: April 2013
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Well, there was a case a couple of years ago of an assistant coach named Jerry Sandusky with the (American) football team of one of the universities here who used his position to help create a program that (supposedly) was to help underprivileged boys in the area.  However, it later turned out he was using it to get into a position to rape them, and a lot of it occurred in the team's locker room - he was often able to get naked with them because many of the boys wouldn't have a father figure in the home, so he'd take them to such things as team practices and allow them to play around there and get sweaty, then when everyone else had left (the coaching staff would be the last ones to leave, and he was in position to come up with reasons to be the last staff member out without arousing suspicion) tell the boys to shower there with him on the basis that he was teaching them "personal hygiene."

So, granted, while I haven't talked with any of these women personally, I can see how they might think that a locker room rape isn't outside the realm of possibility, simply because it's not like nobody's ever been raped in a locker room before.  (And for the record, I do not want to suggest, indicate, or otherwise imply that transgendered individuals are really heterosexual rapists in disguise, by any means, merely that the fear of rape, irrational as it may be, is there, and fear is a very powerful motivator for a lot of things, not all of them logical.)
Re: That bathroom/locker room trash  [message #70691 is a reply to message #70690] Wed, 30 December 2015 18:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13759



"Mark wrote on Wed, 30 December 2015 18:38"
Well, there was a case a couple of years ago of an assistant coach named Jerry Sandusky with the (American) football team of one of the universities here who used his position to help create a program that (supposedly) was to help underprivileged boys in the area.  However, it later turned out he was using it to get into a position to rape them, and a lot of it occurred in the team's locker room - he was often able to get naked with them because many of the boys wouldn't have a father figure in the home, so he'd take them to such things as team practices and allow them to play around there and get sweaty, then when everyone else had left (the coaching staff would be the last ones to leave, and he was in position to come up with reasons to be the last staff member out without arousing suspicion) tell the boys to shower there with him on the basis that he was teaching them "personal hygiene."

So, granted, while I haven't talked with any of these women personally, I can see how they might think that a locker room rape isn't outside the realm of possibility, simply because it's not like nobody's ever been raped in a locker room before.  (And for the record, I do not want to suggest, indicate, or otherwise imply that transgendered individuals are really heterosexual rapists in disguise, by any means, merely that the fear of rape, irrational as it may be, is there, and fear is a very powerful motivator for a lot of things, not all of them logical.)

--
That's really apples and oranges, though. I remember that case. It was a real premeditated offence that happened. This is about ordinary sharing of resources by those who want to use them for the purpose for which they are intended.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: That bathroom/locker room trash  [message #70692 is a reply to message #70691] Wed, 30 December 2015 21:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
notDave is currently offline  notDave

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These are women who (for whatever reason) refuse to acknowledge that male-to-female transgender identity is real. They think that if you have a penis, regardless of how you identify your gender, you're a male.

These women also think that having males in female locker rooms is a problem. Maybe they think this because they're afraid they'll be leered at. Maybe they think this because they believe that a male seeing a female will compulsively lose control of their body and penetrate them.

I've been in locker rooms, including mixed-gender ones, and at least in my experience it's not a "sexual" place. I'm hot and tired from working out or sports, I want a shower and then I want to get out of there. I could give a rip about what other people are doing there or what they look like naked. And the reality is that in a modern men's locker room, you're not going to see much anyway. Young guys are very modest, and old guys are perfectly happy to wander around the room, drying their nuts under the hand dryers and propping a foot up on a bench and talking about golf for a half hour, showing their fat, wrinkly bodies and nutsacks down to their knees to anyone in the room. Not exactly a fine ogling experience, in my opinion.

But, I know the atmosphere in a men's locker room. I know how shitty some men can be to each other, and how shitty some of these guys act toward women while they're changing or showering. The fact is that these trans individuals who are using that female locker room are probably doing it because the men's locker room is a lot less of a safe place than the women's locker room is. How much crap would a f2m person get from the men in the men's locker room for doing their makeup, or drying their hair? 

Until people get some better education about trans issues - and I think a lot of these really uneducated people are simply going to have to die off to get there - these are debates and fights that will continue to happen.
Re: That bathroom/locker room trash  [message #70693 is a reply to message #70692] Wed, 30 December 2015 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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"Quote: NotDave wrote:"

...Maybe they think this because they believe that a male seeing a female will compulsively lose control of their body and penetrate them.




--
Maybe it's wishful thinking.

It will be a long time before this lot die off. The linked article has a picture of one. She seems rather too young to die off any time soon

[Updated on: Wed, 30 December 2015 22:01]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: That bathroom/locker room trash  [message #70698 is a reply to message #70691] Thu, 31 December 2015 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark

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Registered: April 2013
Messages: 277



"Quote:"
timmy wrote on Wed, 30 December 2015 11:52That's really apples and oranges, though. I remember that case. It was a real premeditated offence that happened. This is about ordinary sharing of resources by those who want to use them for the purpose for which they are intended.

--

Well, put yourself in the place of these women.  They probably don't see it that way - for them, it would just be a matter of, instead of 'claim' of "I'm just a nice guy who was trying to help out disadvantaged fatherless youth learn personal hygiene," they're seeing people who are really heterosexual males who, even if they don't want to get into a position to actually initiate any sort of physical contact (i.e. rape), might want to at the very least try to get free peep shows by claiming "I'm really a MtF transgendered person, but I just don't have the money for things like hormone treatment or gender reassignment surgery."  It's still using a locker room to get their jollies off; they're just changing the the specific wording of the argument as to why they should be allowed in the locker room in question at the same time that people they're sexually attracted to are also using it.

Also, like notDave pointed out, it may also be a belief that even if the transgendered people really are telling the truth (MtF folks who want to use the locker room/bathroom that is designated for the gender they identify with, rather than straight guys looking to ogle naked women without having to pay for legally made porn), that there might still be the possibility that on some deep down primal level there's still enough straight guy left in the transgendered individual to make them lose control when around naked women.

It would definitely be interesting to actually contact these women (or others who think like them) and see what their response would be when asked, "Just what do you think will happen if transgendered people use the bathroom or locker room of the gender they identify with, rather than the gender they were born with?"

[Updated on: Thu, 31 December 2015 18:50]

Re: That bathroom/locker room trash  [message #70700 is a reply to message #70698] Thu, 31 December 2015 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13759



"Mark wrote on Thu, 31 December 2015 18:50"

"Quote:"
timmy wrote on Wed, 30 December 2015 11:52That's really apples and oranges, though. I remember that case. It was a real premeditated offence that happened. This is about ordinary sharing of resources by those who want to use them for the purpose for which they are intended.

--

Well, put yourself in the place of these women.  They probably don't see it that way - for them, it would just be a matter of, instead of 'claim' of "I'm just a nice guy who was trying to help out disadvantaged fatherless youth learn personal hygiene," they're seeing people who are really heterosexual males who, even if they don't want to get into a position to actually initiate any sort of physical contact (i.e. rape), might want to at the very least try to get free peep shows by claiming "I'm really a MtF transgendered person, but I just don't have the money for things like hormone treatment or gender reassignment surgery."  It's still using a locker room to get their jollies off; they're just changing the the specific wording of the argument as to why they should be allowed in the locker room in question at the same time that people they're sexually attracted to are also using it.

Also, like notDave pointed out, it may also be a belief that even if the transgendered people really are telling the truth (MtF folks who want to use the locker room/bathroom that is designated for the gender they identify with, rather than straight guys looking to ogle naked women without having to pay for legally made porn), that there might still be the possibility that on some deep down primal level there's still enough straight guy left in the transgendered individual to make them lose control when around naked women.

It would definitely be interesting to actually contact these women (or others who think like them) and see what their response would be when asked, "Just what do you think will happen if transgendered people use the bathroom or locker room of the gender they identify with, rather than the gender they were born with?"

--
I'm going to continue to dismiss these women as being the same as all the men who think a gay man is going to find them attractive. "Backs to the wall, lads, timmy's a queer!

It is an overwhelming conceit for them to consider that anyone possessing a penis wishes to insert it into parts of their anatomy. It is equally conceited for them to believe that they are so alluring (on some primal level) that they are attractive enough for all penis owners even to consider it.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: That bathroom/locker room trash  [message #70701 is a reply to message #70700] Fri, 01 January 2016 07:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark

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Registered: April 2013
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"I've always felt that feminism was just an excuse for ugly women to march."  - Larry Flynt

I suppose it kind of goes along with the old joke that says that men supposedly think about sex literally every few seconds.  I agree that quite a few people (both male and female) are not nearly as attractive as they make themselves out to be, and certainly it seems (to me, at least) that if someone is at the very least a Peeping Tom (if not an outright rapist) that there are easier ways to go about getting their thrills than getting the things they'd need to be officially declared a MtF transgendered individual (even without the hormone treatments and suguries) and thus "entitled" to use the women's locker rooms and bathrooms.

[Updated on: Fri, 01 January 2016 08:03]

Re: That bathroom/locker room trash  [message #71397 is a reply to message #70701] Sun, 24 April 2016 05:36 Go to previous message
Mark

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Registered: April 2013
Messages: 277



I've read several articles recently on the topic that have been on the Yahoo site.  It's very interesting to read some of the comments on such articles, but apparently, the reason some people don't like the idea of allowing transgendered individuals to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with is that they are concerned that non-transgendered men (individuals who were born male and identify as such) will try to pretend that they're women just to get into the women's bathroom in order to be able to have an opportunity to gawk at women's exposed private parts and/or sexually assault women.  (In the on-going debate on this topic, the most recent law in the U.S. that's brought up a lot of discussion/controversy on the subject is a law in the state of North Carolina that says that when using public bathrooms, people must use the bathroom that matches the gender they were assigned at birth, rather than the gender they identify with.)

Personally, I find it a bit odd myself.  As Timmy noted, I don't think that most people are going to get off on watching people go to the loo (and the fears of those individuals mentioned above always seem to be under the impression that it's only men - never women - that will try to crossdress and sneak into the other gender's bathroom to watch people do their "business," and that they will only do so if transgender bathroom laws exist; evidently, not having laws that permit transgendered individuals to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with will ensure that these pervy men will stay dressed as a man and limit themselves to the men's bathroom).  And while it's possible that there are indeed people out there who get off on watching people use the toilet (I've heard of a variety of fetishes over the years, so I suppose it's not entirely outside the realm of possibility that such a "toilet-using" fetish exists), bathroom stalls for toilets (not counting urinals) are designed in such a way that it would be hard to be discreet if you're trying to watch someone in there.

I just read an article about a man (who's the father of a 21-year-old daughter) from Dallas, Texas, who posted a comment on Facebook that has so far gained more than 5,000 shares that I think sums things up really well.  He declared, in referring to his daughter:

"I worry about her being sexually assaulted, because that happens a lot. I worry about her being the victim of a drunk driver, because that happens a lot. I worry about her being the victim of gun violence, because lots of people die from gun-related injuries. Here's what I do not worry about: I don't worry about her being attacked in a restroom by a trans woman because (a) it has never happened; and (b) trans women are the most victimized group of people I've ever met, and the least likely to commit a crime of indecency in a restroom, because they are afraid of getting beat up when all they want to do is pee."
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