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American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76197] Fri, 15 November 2019 04:07 Go to next message
Paul Schroder is currently offline  Paul Schroder

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As I'm sure the entire world is aware, the American House of Representatives has formally began impeachment proceedings against our President, Donald Trump. As of this date, polls show that 60% of Americans are in favor of this process.

My question is directed towards non-Americans who may come across this forum. From all that you have heard about President Trump, do you believe these proceedings are correct and appropriate? And, if you don't mind, what is the basis you use for your opinion?

[Updated on: Fri, 15 November 2019 04:52]

Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76200 is a reply to message #76197] Fri, 15 November 2019 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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What alarms me is that the USA has left it so long. Isn't Drumpf precisely what your Second Amendment was drafted for?

I see criminality and the manifest desire to be a despot in Drumpf, the enrichment of those he perceives as useful to him. I am ignoring his alleged politics, for he has none save Make Trump Great. How lucky he is not the orator that a certain Austrian was in Germany in the 1930s. And no, I have not invoked Godwin's Law without reason

The once proud nation that was the USA is not the only nation in the world to have made itself look very stupid. The UK is close behind. It's just that the world is afraid of the USA becaise it can kill us all many times over.  Your president must go

One major problem is your Vice President, the thin lipped fundamentalist christianist, the vicious anti LGBT one. You don't want him either

[Updated on: Fri, 15 November 2019 17:45]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76201 is a reply to message #76200] Fri, 15 November 2019 17:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

Really getting into it
Location: USA
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Spot on, Tim. Such a pity more of us here can't see it in those terms. 



“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76207 is a reply to message #76201] Sun, 17 November 2019 08:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Talo Segura is currently offline  Talo Segura

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In reply to Paul Schroder, personally, like a lot of people, I do not like Trump's policies. However, nobody is saying that the Presidential elections were not free and democratic. 53% of Americans voted Republican for Trump and his policies, "make America great again." It is therefore true that the majority of Americans prefer low unemployment, a thriving economy and to hell with destroying the planet. Nationalism, protectionism, xenophobia, and crushing regimes that don't conform with US policy is the order of the day. All that said, I do not believe in trying to depose a democratically elected President because you personally don't like him and didn't vote him in.

Much the same can be said about the UK and Brexit. You don't like the result so let's vote again. Really, maybe do the best of three?

You get the government and President you voted for, you get a chance to vote again when the term is over, that is democracy. Minority opinion trying to overturn a vote they disagree with, even when that minority is 47% of Americans, is simply not democratic. You may dislike the President, but you ought to respect the office and position.




Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76208 is a reply to message #76207] Sun, 17 November 2019 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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"Talo Segura wrote on Sun, 17 November 2019 08:36"
In reply to Paul Schroder, personally, like a lot of people, I do not like Trump's policies. However, nobody is saying that the Presidential elections were not free and democratic. 53% of Americans voted Republican for Trump and his policies, "make America great again." It is therefore true that the majority of Americans prefer low unemployment, a thriving economy and to hell with destroying the planet. Nationalism, protectionism, xenophobia, and crushing regimes that don't conform with US policy is the order of the day. All that said, I do not believe in trying to depose a democratically elected President because you personally don't like him and didn't vote him in.

Much the same can be said about the UK and Brexit. You don't like the result so let's vote again. Really, maybe do the best of three?

You get the government and President you voted for, you get a chance to vote again when the term is over, that is democracy. Minority opinion trying to overturn a vote they disagree with, even when that minority is 47% of Americans, is simply not democratic. You may dislike the President, but you ought to respect the office and position.[/font-size]






--
Trump is being impeached not for his policies, but for his behaviour in office, behaviour that is likely to be criminal, behaviour that appears to be criminal, behaviour that appears to be against the US Constitution. 

It would not matter if he had won 80% of the rather weird US electiral college voting system, it is his behaviour that matters.


The UK is different, and is a sidetrack. The referendum was very close indeed, pretty close to being a tie. The winning side campaigned on proven lies. In any democracy the people have the absolute right to change their minds, and that is what, in true democracy, the UK's parliament has sought to determine and act upon. This is why the UK is now having a full election.

[Updated on: Sun, 17 November 2019 11:35]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76212 is a reply to message #76207] Sun, 17 November 2019 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ivor slipper is currently offline  ivor slipper

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"Talo Segura wrote on Sun, 17 November 2019 08:36"
[font-size=100%]In reply to Paul Schroder, personally, like a lot of people, I do not like Trump's policies. However, nobody is saying that the Presidential elections were not free and democratic. 53% of Americans voted Republican for Trump and his policies, "make America great again." I

--

Where did you find thatfigure Talo? According to the figures I have, Trump received 46.1% of the vote and Clinton 48.2%.

Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76213 is a reply to message #76212] Sun, 17 November 2019 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich

Really getting into it
Location: Seaofstars
Registered: August 2003
Messages: 563



"ivor slipper wrote on Sun, 17 November 2019 17:11"
"Talo Segura wrote on Sun, 17 November 2019 08:36"
[font-size=100%]In reply to Paul Schroder, personally, like a lot of people, I do not like Trump's policies. However, nobody is saying that the Presidential elections were not free and democratic. 53% of Americans voted Republican for Trump and his policies, "make America great again." I

--

Where did you find thatfigure Talo? According to the figures I have, Trump received 46.1% of the vote and Clinton 48.2%.


--
ivor;

You are both right, The purge idiot won the the electoral college vote by 53% and Clinton did indeed win the popular vote.

The thing we Americans often forget is that we do not live in a democracy we live in a democratic republic, which is why most of the "founding fathers never expected the gov we have to last as long as it has...They saw the potential for abuse way back when.

PersonallyI think we need a gov based on humanitarianism rather than being driven by the supply and demand of materials, materialism is in the it death throws. I see the only option to be personalism.
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76217 is a reply to message #76200] Sun, 17 November 2019 22:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
American_Alex

Toe is in the water
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98



The second ammendment regards the right to bear arms, within a "well-regulated militia". It is for protecting your self from bandits and invaders, NOT for sedition and revolt. The 25th ammendment allows a president to be removed by a vote of a majority of cabinet secretaries and the vice-president. Otherwise, a majority of the house has to vote for impeachment, then send it for trial in the senate, wher 2/3 must vote for conviction. Those are some pretty long odds today.

As far as having Pense become president, well, if DJT gets booted either by the senate or by a majority of his chosen cabinet secretaries, Pence will be a paper tiger at best. If the corruption includes him we may up with the speaker of the house, Nancy Pelosi as acting president for a year....

FWIW, our governmental safeguards were designed to be difficult to invoke. that way we can avoid the quick swings in political ideology which plague your system, such as the events in 1974 when 2 goverments fell.



"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76219 is a reply to message #76213] Sun, 17 November 2019 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ivor slipper is currently offline  ivor slipper

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"arich wrote on Sun, 17 November 2019 18:13"

"ivor slipper wrote on Sun, 17 November 2019 17:11"

"Talo Segura wrote on Sun, 17 November 2019 08:36"
[font-size=100%]In reply to Paul Schroder, personally, like a lot of people, I do not like Trump's policies. However, nobody is saying that the Presidential elections were not free and democratic. 53% of Americans voted Republican for Trump and his policies, "make America great again." I


--

Where did you find thatfigure Talo? According to the figures I have, Trump received 46.1% of the vote and Clinton 48.2%.



--
ivor;

You are both right, The purge idiot won the the electoral college vote by 53% and Clinton did indeed win the popular vote.

The thing we Americans often forget is that we do not live in a democracy we live in a democratic republic, which is why most of the "founding fathers never expected the gov we have to last as long as it has...They saw the potential for abuse way back when.

PersonallyI think we need a gov based on humanitarianism rather than being driven by the supply and demand of materials, materialism is in the it death throws. I see the only option to be personalism.

--

I don't think even that figure is right. 53% of 538 is 285 and he had 307 votes in the Electoral College which is 57%
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76222 is a reply to message #76219] Mon, 18 November 2019 00:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
arich is currently offline  arich

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Messages: 563



Yeah I don't remember what the exact numbers were. There is little I want to remember about the last 3 + years.... Just want it to end.

One issue that will need to be addressed ASP is the damage that this tragedy and the minority he represents has cussed within our judiciary.

The point is that he did not win the popular vote, but managed to swing it through the electoral college, and that through gerrymandering.. A thing I loath.

🖖☮️
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76225 is a reply to message #76207] Mon, 18 November 2019 04:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Geron Kees is currently offline  Geron Kees

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Messages: 132



"Talo Segura wrote on Sun, 17 November 2019 08:36"
In reply to Paul Schroder, personally, like a lot of people, I do not like Trump's policies. However, nobody is saying that the Presidential elections were not free and democratic. 53% of Americans voted Republican for Trump and his policies, "make America great again." It is therefore true that the majority of Americans prefer low unemployment, a thriving economy and to hell with destroying the planet. Nationalism, protectionism, xenophobia, and crushing regimes that don't conform with US policy is the order of the day. All that said, I do not believe in trying to depose a democratically elected President because you personally don't like him and didn't vote him in.

Much the same can be said about the UK and Brexit. You don't like the result so let's vote again. Really, maybe do the best of three?

You get the government and President you voted for, you get a chance to vote again when the term is over, that is democracy. Minority opinion trying to overturn a vote they disagree with, even when that minority is 47% of Americans, is simply not democratic. You may dislike the President, but you ought to respect the office and position.[/font-size]


--

I'm not sure where you got your figures, but I don't agree with them. The 2016 election had a historically low voter turnout, with just 55.4% of all registered voters actually voting. That was the lowest turnout since 1996. Of that amount, 26.5% voted for Clinton, and 26.3% voted for Trump. Trump actually lost the popular vote by 3,000,000 votes. It was the electoral college that put him into office.

This was quite a shock for the nation. So many people simply assumed that Clinton would win that they didn't bother to vote at all, and would have voted for Clinton had they voted. A maximum effort was put out by the Republicans, on the other hand, and we see what happened as a result. 

That miximum effort will be repeated in 2020, but so will an effort by the Democrats, who will not be sitting at home this time around. I do not agree that a misassumption on the part of millions that Clinton would win, causing them not to even vote, is the same thing as approval for Trump. And, his approval ratings have stayed about the same since his election, which is low. The 2016 election was a fluke, and the 2020 election needs to correct that error.

I actually know a few people that voted for Trump, who now say it was the worst mistake they ever made. I have feeling they are not alone. The ridiculous flouting of the constituion and the law by the Trump adminstration would not have flown in the past, but the Republican party seems adamant to defend their boy even in the light of his obvious abuses. Contrary to their idea that they can weather this storm and win the next election, this one is going to sink their ship, and quite deeply. As the old saying goes, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76226 is a reply to message #76207] Mon, 18 November 2019 05:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 482



"Talo Segura wrote on Sun, 17 November 2019 00:36"
In reply to Paul Schroder, personally, like a lot of people, I do not like Trump's policies. However, nobody is saying that the Presidential elections were not free and democratic. 53% of Americans voted Republican for Trump and his policies, "make America great again." It is therefore true that the majority of Americans prefer low unemployment, a thriving economy and to hell with destroying the planet. Nationalism, protectionism, xenophobia, and crushing regimes that don't conform with US policy is the order of the day. All that said, I do not believe in trying to depose a democratically elected President because you personally don't like him and didn't vote him in.

Much the same can be said about the UK and Brexit. You don't like the result so let's vote again. Really, maybe do the best of three?

You get the government and President you voted for, you get a chance to vote again when the term is over, that is democracy. Minority opinion trying to overturn a vote they disagree with, even when that minority is 47% of Americans, is simply not democratic. You may dislike the President, but you ought to respect the office and position.[/font-size]








--
It is untrue that 53% of Americans voted for Trump. 
  • Only 55.4% of citizens in the US are reported to have voted for president 
  • Clinton received 48.2% of the 55.4%
  • Trump received 46.1% of the 55.4% (less votes than Clinton, which is to say he lost in the raw vote totals)

When you extrapolate those percentages to determine the percentage of Americans who voted for Trump it comes nowhere near the 53% that is claimed in the post above. I've not done the math but roughly I think it would be somewhere around 25% of Americans voted for Trump.

The constitutional mandate of the electoral college in which the candiate who receives the most electoral votes from each state wins the election is the only reason Trump is now president. The way the Electoral College works is that each state constitution sets forth exactly how their "electors" must cast their vote for president. Some states require all electors in their state to vote for whichever candidate won the majority vote. Other states only suggest that the elector vote in that manner. Yet other states require and some states suggest the number of electors from their state vote based on the percentages of raw vote totals each candidate received.

In the case of the 2016 election each of the electors from every state voted without variation exactly what their state constitution either required or suggested to vote. However, many of the electors in the electoral college were free, if they felt convinced there was good reason to do so, to vote in a way other than what their state constitution suggested they vote. That is to say that potentially, the electoral college could vote in a way other than the results of the vote in their homestate, thus overturning the results of the election. This has never occured in US presidential election history. 

[Updated on: Mon, 18 November 2019 05:14]




“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76227 is a reply to message #76226] Mon, 18 November 2019 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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That he was elected according to the rules is not in doubt.

Nor is it in doubt that his campaign used extraordinary means to prosper.

Nor is it in doubt that we know when he's lying because his lips are moving or he's tweeted some more ordure

But we are getting distracted from the impeachment, pulled back to more familiar arguments of whether it was a fair election. It was fair, albeit disappointing, but his opponent was lacklustre. If those two were the best of the US then something is badly awry with the USA.

This is what was asked:
Quote:
My question is directed towards non-Americans who may come across this forum. From all that you have heard about President Trump, do you believe these proceedings are correct and appropriate? And, if you don't mind, what is the basis you use for your opinion?


I think we might extend that to US folk too, though. This TV star is your president after all




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76240 is a reply to message #76197] Fri, 22 November 2019 22:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken is currently offline  Ken

Getting started

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The US has a great tradidion of someone whispering the password "Sic semper tyrannis" into the ears of someone they do not like. I think it would be a good idea to revive this tradition...
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76241 is a reply to message #76197] Sat, 23 November 2019 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Schroder is currently offline  Paul Schroder

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They've called the last witness and are ready to vote. If the House votes on a 2/3 majority to impeach the President, (and remember that there is a majority number of Democrats in the House, making it likely to happen,) then the next step moves to the Senate.

A committee of representatives, called "managers," acts as prosecutors before the Senate. The Senate sits as a High Court of Impeachment in which senators consider evidence, hear witnesses, and vote to acquit or convict the impeached official. In the case of presidential impeachment trials, the chief justice of the United States presides. There would then need to be a two-thirds vote necessary to convict Trump and remove him from office.

Understand, the GOP (read Republican/Trump's Party) holds a 53-47 majority in the Senate. A two thirds vote for conviction would require every Democratic Senator and fourteen Republican Senators voting for Impeachment. Is this just an exercise in futility?

What do you think?
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76242 is a reply to message #76241] Sat, 23 November 2019 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I think it's an attempt, wisely, to derail Trump's 2020 run, but he will not be convicted



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76243 is a reply to message #76242] Sat, 23 November 2019 02:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark

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I'm thinking a lot in the same direction as Timmy.  There's simply no way that Democrats are going to get the 2/3 majority needed in the U.S. Senate for conviction (there are currently 100 U.S. senators, meaning that 67 of those will need to vote in favor of conviction in order for Trump to be tossed out), and that's unlikely to occur.  Yes, Trump has done some stupid things since taking office, I'm not going to deny that, but so far I've yet to see anything that could be pitched as constituting "high crimes and misdemeanors" as indicated in the U.S. Constitution.  This may come back to bite Democrats, jsut because they're very much like the titular character in the story of the boy who cried wolf - they've been screaming "Impeach Trump!" for so long (and using stuff that hasn't panned out yet as "evidence" for why we should do that) that people may be getting sick of hearing that, and just want the whole thing to be over.  The most recent efforts (surrounding the phone call with the Ukranian president, allegedly threatening to withold military aid unless they help Trump dig up dirt on the Joe Biden family; I remember reading in one story early on that even the Ukrianian president himself claims that no such threat was made) seems to be Democrats are grasping at straws more in an effort to get Trump out of office by causing him to lose his bid for reelection, rather than bringing up something that is actually grounds for removal from office via a conviction at an impeachment trial prior to the next presidential election.

I'm kind of reminded of the following editorial cartoon:

http://forum.iomfats.org/?t=getfile&id=5074&private=0
  • Attachment: trump.jpg
    (Size: 48.86KB, Downloaded 726 times)
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76244 is a reply to message #76241] Sat, 23 November 2019 07:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Talo Segura is currently offline  Talo Segura

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"Paul Schroder wrote on Sat, 23 November 2019 01:12"

What do you think?

--
The impeachment process revolves around the US/Ukraine military aid and the call Trump made plus various supposed moves to manipulate a quid pro quo, aid in exchange for a public investigation discrediting the Democrat opposition.This is all unproven and rests in the domain of US foreign policy over which the President has total and unequivocal power under the constitution. This is not an internal affair like Nixon or Clinton. There is no evidence that he did actually say to the Ukraine President, start an investigation or get no aid. It would seem most likely that these impeachment proceedings are going nowhere, they are detrimental to the Democrat party and to the country. There is more chance Trump will win a second term than this will succeed. Only an undeniable piece of evidence to support bribery and mis-conduct would force Trump to resign.
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76246 is a reply to message #76241] Sat, 23 November 2019 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

Really getting into it
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"Paul Schroder wrote on Fri, 22 November 2019 16:12"
What do you think?

--
He will not be convicted. 1 or 2 senators, perhaps 3 might break ranks and vote to convict but tha't about it. Moscow Mitch has a very firm grip on the control of his caucus, and the Orange Baboon has something on Moscow Mitch that Mitch doesn't want anyone to know about. The only way a conviction will happen is of Moscow Mitch sees the writing on the wall that the GOP base is abandoning their guy. That's not going to happen, so there we are.



“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76249 is a reply to message #76241] Sun, 24 November 2019 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
American_Alex

Toe is in the water
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98



"Paul Schroder wrote on Fri, 22 November 2019 19:12"
They've called the last witness and are ready to vote. If the House votes on a 2/3 majority to impeach the President, (and remember that there is a majority number of Democrats in the House, making it likely to happen,) then the next step moves to the Senate.
--

Impeacment in the House of representatives requires only a simple majority. Conviction in the SENATE requires a 2/3 supermajority.




"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76266 is a reply to message #76249] Mon, 25 November 2019 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Schroder is currently offline  Paul Schroder

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"American_Alex wrote on Sun, 24 November 2019 07:55"

Quote:
Impeacment in the House of representatives requires only a simple majority. Conviction in the SENATE requires a 2/3 supermajority.



I stand corrected.  Passage by the House becomes entirely likely then.
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76271 is a reply to message #76197] Tue, 26 November 2019 03:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin

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It's not my usual practice to weigh into public forums on politics, but given the data shared back and forth about the 2016 election, the trade offs on impeachment, etc., I think it's worth taking a moment to consider what else is going on that is having the same effect on our nation and body politic as pouring hydrochloric acid down the drain! Consider this from an Op-Ed two days ago by Brett Stephens, formerly with the Wall Street Journal (conservative for those who don't know) and now with The NY Times, (liberal for those who don't know), and a lifelong conservative pundit who initially opposed impeachment as a non-starter.He's saying that the impeachment process matters..."because we've been living in a country undergoing its own dismal process of Ukrainianization: of treating fictions as facts; and propaganda as journalism; and political opponents as criminals; and political offices as business ventures; and personal relatives as diplomatic representatives; and legal fixers as shadow cabinet members; and extortion as foreign policy; and toadyism as patriotism; and fellow citizens as "human scum"; and mortal enemies as long-lost friends -- and then acting as if all this is perfectly normal. This is more than a high crime. It's a clear and present danger to our security, institutions, and moral hygiene."



Bensiamin
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76272 is a reply to message #76271] Tue, 26 November 2019 04:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

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"Bensiamin wrote on Mon, 25 November 2019 19:10"
This is more than a high crime. It's a clear and present danger to our security, institutions, and moral hygiene.


--
That is about as basic a truth as I've seen on the subject.




“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76339 is a reply to message #76197] Mon, 02 December 2019 10:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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This is an interesting analysis



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76341 is a reply to message #76339] Mon, 02 December 2019 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin

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It is a sad but true analysis. It will be good for the nation long term to have all the corrupt dealing exposed, but almost certainly won't result in impeachment.

At the risk of mixing religion and politics (as if we're not already!) there's also this analysis about what's driving the largest part of his voter block. That is pretty nauseating, but should be something everyone concerned about civil rights, especially LGBTQ rights should be watching. 

Right behind the efforts in many states to essentially change existing laws to make abortions illegal is an effort or overturn same-sex marriage laws, and if that happens, right behind that will be revocation of civil rights for LGBTQs. The court cases about bakers is not for naught!

It's on Awesome Dude, but a frightful short story on where this could go is this well written one by Douglas Grant.

"The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance!"







Bensiamin
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76344 is a reply to message #76339] Tue, 03 December 2019 03:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

Really getting into it
Location: USA
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Messages: 482



"timmy wrote on Mon, 02 December 2019 02:28"
This is an interesting analysis

--
This has been my belief since the first talk of impeachment started some time back. This is exactly how it will come down, as I think I pointed out further up this thread. It's so odd to me that the people who've always set themselves up as the moral guardians of our society are the very ones who are defending this vileness so strongly. It doesn't surprise me, but it continues to be an "smh" moment for me.



“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76345 is a reply to message #76341] Tue, 03 December 2019 03:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

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"Bensiamin wrote on Mon, 02 December 2019 11:00"
It's on Awesome Dude, but a frightful short story on where this could go is this well written one by Douglas Grant.

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Douglas Grand is an excellent author when it comes to these kinds of issues. This particular short story is one of his best in that regard but it seems there is always an undertone here and there in his writing. I used to think he was paranoid in his stance on these things but the pushback following Obergefell v. Hodges in 2015, I've come to a change of mind. 



“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76350 is a reply to message #76339] Wed, 04 December 2019 03:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark

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"timmy wrote on Mon, 02 December 2019 03:28"
This is an interesting analysis

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I read that a while back myself.  I'm of mixed feelings myself over the whole thing.  Yes, nobody should be above the law, not even the U.S. president (especially not the U.S. president), but if Democrats don't do this exactly right, it has the potential to blow up in their faces, because if it doesn't get Trump out of office (either via conviction in an impeachment trial or, at the very least, causing him to lose his bid for re-election) it would just give him more ammo in his whole "I'm the victim of a political witch hunt!" claims.
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76429 is a reply to message #76197] Sat, 21 December 2019 06:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark

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"Paul Schroder wrote on Thu, 14 November 2019 21:07"
My question is directed towards non-Americans who may come across this forum. From all that you have heard about President Trump, do you believe these proceedings are correct and appropriate? And, if you don't mind, what is the basis you use for your opinion?

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Well, considering recent events, and just to answer the original question above (which I hope I am permitted to do, even though I'm an American and, as such, was not techically the target of said question) I wish to share the following quote I came across (and as a side note, I do wish to emphasise that I voted for Gary Johnson - the Libertarian Party's candidate - in the 2016 U.S. presidential election):

"When Democrats are more angry at Donald Trump for looking into Joe Biden's corruption than they are at Joe Biden's corruption, that tells you everything you need to know."
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76466 is a reply to message #76197] Thu, 02 January 2020 05:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Schroder is currently offline  Paul Schroder

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President Trump was told, by the GOP leader of the Senate, that the Senate would protect the President throughout the impeachment trial. He has made this clearly known. The leader of the House, however, in order to get some concessions for fairness from the Senate, is not moving forward to advance the proceedings into the Senate. After all, the President has now been impeached. He will always have this on his record. The House Democrats realize the odds are slim to none that the Senate will vote to remove him.  The President is highly agitated and anxious to get the process started.  But, the House can hold off advancing everything into the Senate for as long as they want. Will the lack of advancement by the House be the President's undoing?  So much has been written about his need to prove his superiority that he may emotionally melt down from the inability to defend himself. My question: what do you think his response will be if Pellosi decides to hold back on sending impeachement proceedings to the Senate? Can he hold it together? Or, will he force the Senate to provide a fair trial?
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76468 is a reply to message #76466] Thu, 02 January 2020 09:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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No-one can force the senate to hold a fair trial. No-one can force politically appointed SCOTUS judges to hold a fair trial either.

Trump has a fragile ego, but is a wannabe dictator. He will think he is holding it together. He may even be re-elected.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: American Impeachment proceedings  [message #76470 is a reply to message #76197] Thu, 02 January 2020 23:14 Go to previous message
Bensiamin is currently offline  Bensiamin

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http://forum.iomfats.org/?t=getfile&id=5077&private=0
I agree with pretty much everything that has been said so far on this subject, and hopefully this cartoon contributes some humor, albeit sardonic humor!

Regardless of the likelihood (or perhaps better said, because of the likelihood!) of Trump's senate trial being a sham and the real likelihood of his being re-elected, everyone with a vested interest in civil rights needs to be as aware of the Trumpist agenda as possible, and of the kinds of Faustian bargains he and his followers made to get where him where he is.

Rolling Stone just published a superb analysis by Alex Morris of evangelicals & the religious right and Trump, that includes a description of the three culture war issues that they consider equally horrid: gay marriage, abortion and the evils of socialism! They've alread overturned gay marriage laws in five states, and are close to nullifying Roe vs. Wade, and who knows where it goes from there.

The piece is an insider view and well worth the time invested. False Idol-Why The Religious Right Worships Trump.

Bensiamin



Bensiamin
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