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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > What part does your sex play in your life?
What part does your sex play in your life?  [message #78195] Fri, 19 November 2021 17:06 Go to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13647



I read this article and started thinking.

My body presebts itself with an outie. I'm pretty confident that I am male. But what exactly is male, what is female? What real part does it play in my life?

[Updated on: Fri, 19 November 2021 18:00]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: What part does your sex play in your life?  [message #78196 is a reply to message #78195] Sat, 20 November 2021 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ivor slipper is currently offline  ivor slipper

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Looks like you're 'outieing' yourself. Timmy :p
Re: What part does your sex play in your life?  [message #78197 is a reply to message #78195] Sat, 20 November 2021 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Location: Worcester, England
Registered: January 2005
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"timmy wrote on Fri, 19 November 2021 17:06"
But what exactly is male, what is female? What real part does it play in my life?


--
As with so many things in life, "male" and "female" are categories that we've chosen to apply, in the usual human attempt to make sense of things: in reality, the boundaries (as with so much of the natural world) are much fuzzier than the Aristotelian logic we've been brought up with prepares us to recognise. As it happens, I personally fall fairly squarely into the category "male".

However, my personal self-identity, and the social identity which I respond best to, is "out gay man", which for me carries overtones that in some respects I may have different attitudes and reactions from those seen as conventionally male. Despite having been fairly gender-nonconforming as a young child, I don't identify as non-binary, and am happy to be seen as male (although I see it as only part of a description). I recognise that this, along with being "white" and "educated" has given me a level of privilege (which are to some extent offset by being "disabled" and "gay").

I've been thinking a lot about non-binary and genderqueer identities over the past few months, as my nibling (formerly niece) has been wrestling with their identity before starting to come out as non-binary earlier this year, and I've been doing my best to support them. While it's an experience entirely alien to me, there do seem to be many commonalities with my coming out as gay in the years around 1980. Decisions about who to come out to and how, fear of rejection, being faced with blank incomprehension or disbelief, being told "it's a phase" or "you're only saying that to seek attention", and a general feeling that society, authorities and official forms simply excluded us from having a recognised existence - things which for me are thankfully generally far in the past - are very live issues for them. 

Lest this be seen as excessively "woke", there are still many things I struggle with, of course. For me, although I understand the "declare my pronouns" movement, it really feels wrong to sign off emails or wear a namebadge at meetings, with "he/him": for me, it signifies an assertion of conventional masculinity with which I'm not entirely happy. And after 25 years of thinking of my "niece" as "she/her", it still takes a bit of a conscious effort to think of my "nibling" as "they/them", and I feel a bit bad that it does (though it's given me an insight into how long it took people to stop asking about girlfriends for years after I'd come out to them as gay!).

Please excuse the length and possible incoherence of this post - for me, it's a very live area and I'm still groping my way towards a settled understanding. I'll be interested to hear any other views ...



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: What part does your sex play in your life?  [message #78198 is a reply to message #78195] Sat, 20 November 2021 11:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13647



In some sort of answer to my own question, my sex plays as little part in my life as my orientation does.

I visit public toilets, for example, to use them for the intended function. I don't care whether the other people there are male or female (cleaners can be female in male toilets). In the gym, should I ever visit one again, I go to the male changing room, though have no issue who sees me naked. I visit clothing optional beaches, and opt not to clothe in warm enough weather.

I despise the employment glass ceiling for those not male.

I despise the orthodox (etc) Jew who cannto even shake hands with a woman. As for the compartmentalised Wailing Wall, words fail me.

I have a sarong, a garment I enjoy wearing, but feel unhappy to wear it outside because the damned neighbours express shock. I bought several in Sri Lanka where it has a different local name, and wore it happily there. How weird that the same neighbours would accept a kilt.

I dislike the fact that, being male, pretty clothes are almost denied to me. I was gaudier in the early 1970s than I could ever be in 2021.

These are surface things.

Inside I am not male, but am me.  

[Updated on: Wed, 30 November 2022 08:47]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: What part does your sex play in your life?  [message #78205 is a reply to message #78198] Fri, 26 November 2021 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teddy is currently offline  Teddy

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: October 2006
Messages: 482



Many of us came "programmed" by our family and our society to assume certain masculine or feminine roles. Some of us fall into those roles with ease and some do not. For some of us our body programs us to be who we are. We have a dick and present all the recognized manifestations of our sex. It's natural to us outside of the influences of family and society. For some it is not so cut and dried. 

I'm reminded of the story here by Pedro ( https://iomfats.org/storyshelf/hosted/pedro/the-challenge-th at-is-tony/22.html ) where a young person is forced into a gender role opposite what they are by a mother who refuses to accept what their sex is. Somehow the child knew who they reall were. On the flip side of that, I have a nephew who is now a niece. She was adamant from very early on, that even though her sex said she was male, she was actually female. Thankfully her parents caught on when she was sill quite young and allowed her to be the gender she knew she was rather than the gender indicated by her genials. The change in her was astonishing. She went from a sad and slightly recalcirant child to a happy, bubbly, outgoing, and agreeable child almost overnight.

For me? I'm definitely male and fit the role of male. I'm bi but probs 85% gay. I love my sex and my gender and most definitely love my orientation. I love the male body and I love dick. Some would say that disqualifies me as male, regardless of my genitals. I think society is way too hung up on this stuff. And while we are at it, society is probably too hung up  on the act of sex over all.  



“There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.” - Terry Pratchett
Re: What part does your sex play in your life?  [message #78219 is a reply to message #78205] Mon, 20 December 2021 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bisexual_Guy is currently offline  Bisexual_Guy

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Timmy, that is a very interesting article.  

I definitely identify as male.  I grew up in the 1950s and 1960s definitely male, but was considered to have some female characteristics because I was more emotionally sensitive than other boys my age seemed to be.  I also cried more easily that what boys were "supposed to."  

I like the maleness of my body and the freedom to stand when I pee, unless I choose to sit.  I like both male and female bodies, but prefer to look more toward males than females in most cases.

Good discussion comments and observations up to this point.
Re: What part does your sex play in your life?  [message #78221 is a reply to message #78219] Mon, 20 December 2021 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
luvtwinks is currently offline  luvtwinks

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"Bisexual_Guy wrote on Mon, 20 December 2021 16:59"
I definitely identify as male.  I grew up in the 1950s and 1960s definitely male, but was considered to have some female characteristics because I was more emotionally sensitive than other boys my age seemed to be.  I also cried more easily that what boys were "supposed to."  

I like the maleness of my body and the freedom to stand when I pee, unless I choose to sit.  I like both male and female bodies, but prefer to look more toward males than females in most cases.


--
I'm exactly the same way. I've never thought of myself as anything but male. I do remember one incident when I was about 12 years old...my older brother, 18 at the time, told me to "stop being such a fem". I don't recall exactly what prompted that comment, but I do recall was really pissed off at him because I didn't percieve myself that way at all. 
Re: What part does your sex play in your life?  [message #78420 is a reply to message #78221] Tue, 29 November 2022 02:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ray2x is currently offline  ray2x

Really getting into it
Location: USA
Registered: April 2009
Messages: 423



I was as fluid as there was back in the 60s. During my primary school days, it made sense to me to play with whomever I wanted to. I would hold hands with a boy or a girl, just grab his or her hand and most kept their hand in mine. I didn't do it to find a way of life, just to be friendly as possible. At home, it was much the same. I'd watch all sorts of sports on TV, even yell at something I didn't like, then wait anxiously to watch the Wizard of Oz on Thanksgiving Sunday. I'd walk in mom's high heel shoes just to see if I could walk in them like mom did (not too successfully). I'd read Sports Illustrated all the time, then take a read of my sister's Tiger Beat magazine.

The sixth grade was tough. I began to understand that boys grow up and begin to act more like a man. Or begin to feel slightly different. I already had some time with a neighborhood boy, playing with clothes off, having a bit of fun. Then there were stories that in middle school, we'd be taking showers after gym classes, no exceptions. I was experiencing a crush with a boy in my sixth grade class, the trouble maker boy. But he was a sweet boy and loved to be talking with me and his brother at the breaks and lunch periods. The crush was very noticable to everyone in the class and in other classes. 

Presently, I'm known as a supporter of students who are non-binary, gay, lesbian, and so on. I just recently came out as a gay man, somewhat elderly. I have fond memories, and non-fond memories, of those young years. All those years, it was me being comforted of who I was.
Re: What part does your sex play in your life?  [message #78422 is a reply to message #78420] Wed, 30 November 2022 00:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ThisRick is currently offline  ThisRick

Getting started
Location: Western USA
Registered: October 2021
Messages: 7



Interesting thread. I enjoy some NB expression and don't let my being an old guy stop me. All my life I've done things that weren't the 'guy' things to do. I've also done very 'guy' things - I find gender stereotypes tiresome. It is easier, though, these days. I felt it was unfair as a kid when my sisters got to paint their nails but I didn't. So now I can have sparkly nails whenever I feel like it. Like the poem says, "when I am an old woman, I shall wear purple". 

But by far the most transgressive non-binary thing I've done is being a primary care giver for my children as infants and pre-schoolers. In the co-op preschool I was the one male 'mother' that regularly helped out with the kids. When my son was born there was a rocking chair in the common area in the hospital which I never saw anyone else use, but I'd spend time rocking and holding my newborn. The nurses made some snarky comments but that didn't bother me. 
Re: What part does your sex play in your life?  [message #78423 is a reply to message #78195] Wed, 30 November 2022 09:25 Go to previous message
timmy

Has no life at all
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13647



This brings me to the self defined concept of FemBoys, almost all of whom seem to have chosen to express the love of being or appearing feminine, almost none of whom appear to be transitioning. A strong source for examples is Twitter, though Musk may have wrung its neck at sme point when you read this. Let me give you some examples, often from lead ins to their OnlyFans accounts. These links are NSFW:

And what happens if we find people like these to be remarkably attractive?  Are we desiring their hairlessness? Are we desiring their eschewing hairy arsed trucker masculinity? Do we identify with them?  Do we wish to penetrate them or be penetrated by them, or neither? Does it say something about our own view of our sex?



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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