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I pretty much stopped commenting on this subject a couple of years ago given that is seemed mainly US-centric and very few (if any!) forum members seemed interested.
The point was that among the conservative/MAGA crowd, the roll back of LGBTQ rights is an agenda item, beginning with reversing same-sex marriage, and then reducing rights overall. We've certainly seen in the election that the focus on trans rights worked effectively to stir up the conservative base, turn trans people into targets as "outsiders" and get elected.
Of note, what was mainly happening in US politics three years ago is now happening worldwide. Remember the draconian laws put in place in coutries like Uganda that made homosexuality subject to the death penalty, and many other African nations are following along, facilitated by their conservative religious institutions. In Europe, far right conservative/nationalist parties are coming into power in Germany, France, and (of all places!) the Netherlands, and similar movements are gaining ground in the UK and other countries. What they all have in commone is white Christian nationalism as characterized by Trump and the MAGA crowd, and most recently funded and promoted by Elon Musk.
Remember, the US was on the leading edge of the curve on this movement, fueled by religious conservative Evangelicals and Catholics, but it has spread and the bigger worry is how far abroad from the US it goes. Ryan Burge, who runs a Substack page that will be linked below, has been tracking this.
His first observation is that in recent years general support for same-sex marriage is dropping, and that can be attributed mainly to Republicans/conservatives, but Independents are flatteging as well:
The telling stat is when he drills deeper and looks at the decline in support by religion or faith:
I'm not in the prediction business, but this says to me that now that the MAGA crowd are in power they will move on roling back same-sex marriage rights, and that will be followed by LGBTQ rights in general because they have pretty wide religious support as well as all their frenzied followers.
The bigger concern with the rise of nationialist political parties in Europe is the degree to which these anti-LGBTQ trends get adopted into their platforms.
Ryan's Substack page is: https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/a-significant-number-o f-christians?utm_campaign=email-half-post&r=73g1j&ut m_source=substack&utm_medium=email
[Updated on: Mon, 27 January 2025 19:09]
Bensiamin
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Kitzyma
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Registered: March 2012
Messages: 235
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Firstly, I want to emphasise that I fully support equality, including in marriage rights, regardless of sexual orientation.
It seems to me that marriage has changed and evolved over the centuries and depends very much on local culture and religious traditions. In our society, we have three main components: personal commitment (love) of the couple, religious ceremony, and the legal contractual aspects. At different times and in different places, the relative importance of those three components has changed.
In Mediaeval Europe, the most important component among nobles was the legal/contractual aspect and how it provided political links between families. For the Church, marriage was a way that they could control people and their sexual activity. The State believed that marriage was a good thing and provided incentives such as the 'standard' legal contracts regarding inheritance, etc. More recently, after divorce was allowed, 'standard' rights of splitting assets, etc., were added.
In modern Western society, it seems that the personal commitment (love) aspect is the most important component. Nowadays, there are many marriages without any religious ceremony. They just have a legal State marriage to provide the legal status that has some benefits, such as tax and inheritance. However, for the wealthy, the 'standard' contract is often insufficient, and they also decide to have prenuptial agreements.
If I remember correctly, around 40% of modern marriages end in divorce, so entering into a legally-recognised marriage doesn't seem to guarantee that the personal commitment will continue. Also, if I remember correctly, around a third of all births are outside of marriage, and many couples who decide to have a personal commitment prefer not to enter into a legal marriage.
On a personal level, in our current society, I think that all the tax breaks and other incentives given to a married couple should be available to any couple, gay or straight, who jointly sign a legal document declaring that they are a couple. All the other legal paraphernalia involved in marriage should be unneccessary.
To summarise my point:
Yes, I strongly believe in equal access to marriage for straight and queer people. However, I don't think that nowadays marriage itself is such a big deal. Equal access to other things, such as adoption, is at least as important.
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Thanks for the comment, Kitzyma. You described the marriage dynamics well, and certainly come down describing the progressive and liberal democratic point of view on the subject: equal access to marriage for straight and queer people.
The dilemma in the US is the culture war dynamic fueled by conservative religious beliefs that have merged with right-wing conservative and nationalistic tendencies to now (as of two days ago thanks to Trump) cease transition care for trans people and begin to unwind same sex marriage rights and behind that will be unwinding LGBTQ rights. In case anyone thinks this is a far fetched noir fantasy, consider this news item from the US dated today:
The first question will be how far this goes and what SCOTUS does if it makes it to that court.
Then the existential question is whethter the othering of LGBTQ people will be part of the agenda in those European countries that move further right and embrace white Christian nationalism. There is a trend happening here, and it is not by accident.
Musk just told Germany to get over their guilt! To paraphrase Marx, history repeats itself!
[Updated on: Wed, 29 January 2025 18:22]
Bensiamin
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Kitzyma
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Registered: March 2012
Messages: 235
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Judging by the events of the past few weeks, the political situation in the USA has made me feel that there are many more urgent things to be concerned about than a threat to gay marriage.
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