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Eldon, before I or anyone else says anything else, I wanted you to know that I appreciate your honesty, your forethought and your wisdom, which is far beyond your years. I applaud you for not only your clear thinking but the delicate and emotive way you have approached what is definitely a very sensitive subject in America even after all this time.
Having said that, I should point out that I am a "yankee" born and bred in the "north" and I've lived much of my life in the "south" as a consequence of my father's military service. I've seen a lot in my time, and I have to admit that you bring up not only a lot of valid points, but some that others might not be able to appreciate because they don't live in as racially diverse a society as America is. Before others jump on that, I did not say that other nations do not have racial diversity. Only that the particulars that affect Eldon's post and his life are different than those in other countries and are often more pervasive than in other countries.
But you are correct. There seems to be a growing rift between various "urban" sub-cultures and main stream society in America. Whether this is happening in other nations I do not know. All I can report and then speculate about is that it has happened and is continuing to happen here. I can't point to any one event that has led to this. I can't definitively say that it was the result of the rise of drug gangs and the music they influenced, or if it was the alteration of the political schema in rural areas (republicans becoming more of an influence in the south), or even if it was a simple responce to MTV influences on popular culture (that means Madonna as well as rap music in general, the rise of Alternative over Metal, the explosion of Electronica and Dance artists, and even the Boy Band Phenominon).
What troubles me is that this rift between black and white, and the growing rift between both black and white and the emerging latino populations in our country, that such things are accelerating. I don't know if this is just something cultural or if there is actual fear out there driving this. I don't like to think it is fear, although, as we well know, what is not understood is often first feared, and then hated.
And I'd very much like to see hate not part of the picture at all.
At one point, I could have said that I had black friends. And mean that they were actually friends, people that I might be willing to die for. I can't say that anymore. Not because I don't like them any more or less than I did in high school. We simply travel in different circles these days. And the circles we travel in don't bump. While that's sad to say, it could be said of a lot of friends I no longer have. Race isn't the issue in friendship, but the paths we take in life can have the profound effect of taking us away from those we value and respect and love. It happens all the time. It's just another mystery of life.
So, I guess what I'm saying is that it's okay to not be running around and fully integrating every culture and racial group into your life. As long as you are open to someone proving themselves as being a friend, then you can accept them as a friend, without it resolving into a matter of race. Personally, I've always found that if you let the person be the reason you like or dislike their company, then you've taken race out of the equation.
One further point and then I'll do the smart thing and turn over the soap box. Those of us of European heritage forget that the nations that espoused our parents and grandparents and so on, they had prejudices and cultural dislikes as well. Usually to other Europeans, for whatever reasons. We forget that the soil of that continent is soaked with old wounds and blood letting over "ethnic" issues, centuries old rivalries and economic difficulties. I can remember growing up and still hearing people talk in derrogatory (sp?) ways about Pollacks, Jews, Germans, Russians, etc., and that members of my own family used terms that I don't feel comfortable repeating here to describe such people. But you know what? they all are generally born with two arms, two legs, a pair of eyes and ears each and a single beating heart that pumps the same red stuff as mine does. Racism isn't limited to the obvious differences we have.
I honestly wish that people would grow up about this, though. Don't we have a lot more pressing issues to deal with than worrying about each other's skin color? And I don't say that meaning to jump on the people who posted here. I mean that about society in general. With AIDS, hunger, war and the environment all sitting there as issues facing the world, you'd think we'd worry more about survival than about dropping each other in boxes with convenient lables.
Sorry, I'll shut up now.
Seeya on the other side, my brothers
Robby
It's not the wolf you see you should fear, but all the ones he howls with. Don't be afraid of the song, but don't piss off the choir.
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I had a friend from north carolina once upon a time that i used to drive insane because he was a conservative and i was one of those tree hugging liberals that his daddy use to warn him about. haha
I used to tell him that I hope some day you attend college or live and work someplace besides in the south and that you fall head over heels in love with someone totally opposite of everything and everyone you've ever known. and he did.
It's hard to get a real hands on perspective on how the rest of the country thinks and behaves when your own personal experience is so wrapped up in history and limited to like-minded friends and a place where your family has lived for so many generations.
Just traveling won't do it because that's just being a tourist. IMHO it takes living in a place for some time to open your mind and heart,expand your thinking, and get a different perspective. At least it does for me.
That's why I am living in the south. Because I dont understand all the hostility that I constantly face when I tour through here. I want to create change even if it's one person at a time.
I honestly dont know why I am called faggot by strangers driving by in pick up trucks. I don't know why white people who live here (not the ones who moved here) are so threatened that they can't even smile and say hello when I speak to them. I don't know if they fear "outsiders" or they just resist any sort of change or what, but I hope to get some kind of understanding and perspective on it and hopefully it will be a mutual learning experience for both me and for people that I meet.
I am all about creating change and I firmly believe that one person can have a really positive effect on others. I have often said, that every time someone stands up against prejudice, racism, bigotry, homophobia, etc. you never know who's life you will touch. It is like dropping a pebble into still water. It may not make much of a splash and the ripples will start out small, but they grow larger and larger and spread wider and wider and you never know how far your one small act will reach or who it will touch or who's life you might totally change.
I've met more than my share of 'elitists' so far in the south. A really close friend of mine used to be one. It seems to be the "in" thing to be down here. haha. He and I used to sit up all night talking about what is really important to him versus what is really important to me. It made some very interesting conversations because we were so opposite and so passionate. Needless to say I won him over eventually (Of course, being me I cheated and flirted shamelessly. Anything for the cause I always say.) haha
I don't "get" the whole DAR/SAR/SOC/DOC/ references. As I have said, my parents are from the south. My family is also in the DAR and SAR and none of us care. I SERIOUSLY have never given a shit about that kind of thing and neither does anyone in my family. it's a meaningless piece of paper that I took to show and tell when I was 5 years old and we were doing family trees. Great great aunts thought it was "interesting" but not all that big a deal even way back then - not enough to go to a meeting. We also have family cemeteries and war heroes and ancestors who fought and died in the revolution... and in the civil war on both sides, North and South so we could be SOC and DOC but we never bothered. It's kinda interesting I guess if you're a history buff but otherwise we dont care and no one talks about it. I dont have stickers on a truck about it. haha I have band stickers and an equal sign from the HRC on the tour van haha. Thats waaaaay more important and relevant to my life than something my ancestors ever did. my family owned slaves. we have documents, census records, books written about it. we have books written about my family's ancestors. and they're all packed away somewhere. no one cares. there are a couple of plantations in the family in virginia. they are pretty and they have interesting history, and books written about them, and thats it. we're not PROUD of it and we're not ashamed of it. it's HISTORY and it's over and who cares? its a house. That doesnt make my family superior or inferior to anyone else imo. its just a fact and i didnt have any say in it so it certainly doesn't define who or what i am today.
I believe with everything in my heart and soul that ALL men are created equal. period. doesnt matter man, woman, black, white, gay straight transgender. we are all equal and we all deserve the same rights. It is so deeply imbedded into my soul that its a part of me, and theres nothing i could ever experience that would make me believe otherwise. its like breathing. it just IS.
and when i hear someone say that they feel like they are superior to someone less fortunate or just different because of their race, it hurts my heart. it really does. it just breaks my heart. i have spent my life fighting against discrimination. whenever a young person feels this way i just want to hug them and say, "come hang out with me for awhile and meet my friends."
It is difficult for me to understand how people can think that way, especially when they are in a minority themselves, whether they are gay or jewish or whatever. When an entire minority group of which you are a part has experienced genocide, discrimination, persecution...and to this day gays don't have the same rights as your straight siblings or your parents...how can a person turn around and look down on another minority because of language differences or economic differences? I can not understand that for the life of me. Looking at an entire minority group and saying ewwwwwww is exactly the same as someone looking at a gay kid and saying ewwwwwwwwww. Think about it.
Being born white or black, gay or straight, short or tall, left handed or right handed...it's all just an accident of birth. How can an accident of birth make anyone superior to anyone else? It doesn't.
Had I been born under different circumstances I hope that I would still be me. Nobody special...just me...Lance. I am just a very very small part of a much bigger picture.
I know in my heart that we are all equal. It's not money. It's not social standing. It's not who your great grandpa was. It's not race, religion, gender, sexual preference. We are all one race...the human race. and those of us who by an accident of birth have had advantages not afforded to all, should feel something inside us that wants to reach out and try to help others or at least try to understand them instead of gloating and swaggering around feeling all full of ourselves. granted i do my share of swaggering and feeling all full of myself, being an arrogant selfish bastard and a slutty rawk star but you know what I'm saying.
Kids who are black speak to one another using the "n" word and motherfucker just as gay men speak to one and another using "fag" and "bitch" or worse haha whatever (I dont want to offend anyone and if I do, I apologize). I hear it all the time among my friends (both gay and black). it is used with humor and affection and totally acceptable within that group context/setting. It is not the same thing as being called a faggot from some stranger in a passing pickup truck. Believe me, I know! haha It is not the same thing as being called the "n" word by some stranger.
The same kids may not be comfortable using motherfucker in front of white kids because they know you are not comfortable hearing it or saying it (assuming you dont go around saying motherfucker to your friends all the time like I do), so they are trying to be respectful of your feelings the same way gay guys don't go around calling each other or their straight acquaintances a sexy faggot or bitch (or whatever) when they are in a "mixed" crowd. They are being respectful and trying not to make anyone uncomfortable (and avoid a fist fight as well.)
It's like hearing kids in school use fag or "thats so gay" a zillion times a day. Some day, and I hope in the not too distant future, those words will be unacceptable in all schools and public places just at the "n" word is unacceptable now. That doesn't mean that gay guys will stop calling each other "fag" or saying "thats so gay" because they will just as black kids will use the "n" word and motherfucker because it's trendy for them to do so. It's not used to be hurtful to one another.
And dont even get me started on rap. haha just know that I'm an OG and kanye's pic is plastered all over my myspace page. you dont want to go there. trust me.
I've never in my life seen a white white person either. your point is what? that there isn't a word to describe this entire race that you are comfortable using except negro and even though the current generation of the entire race objects to this word pretty much unanimously, you think it is more appropriate than what they would choose to call themselves just because it is YOUR preference for them? is that what you're saying? Do you not think that is a bit insensitive? I seriously dont get what you are trying to say with the whole chocolate, etc
All across the south you see statues, etc, I see highways named the Strom Thurmond highway and the Jesse Helms Park and I have gotten out of my car and pissed on both signs...more than once. haha God, to come across shit like that named after two of the worst bigots and homophobes in the history of the US Senate and down here they're treated like heroes! You'll be driving down the road and all of a sudden you'll see something like the billy graham freeway or something and I'm like - damn, didnt they hear what he said about Jews? Hell, I threw parties when Jerry Falwell and Jesse Helms died. haha. The world instantly became a better place imho.
You should ask your classmates at school what they think about their older brother dating a gay guy or their sister being with a lesbian. I wonder if their reactions might not be the same because that is how they have been taught. Prejudice is a learned behavior. Babies are not born prejudiced, it has to be taught. A baby will love gay parents just the same as straight. A baby of any race will love parents of a different race. Prejudice is TAUGHT. And anything that is learned can be unlearned. (Is that a word?) haha
Each person has free will. One's learned prejudices do not have to define one as a person. If one doesn't want to be prejudiced, they can overcome that prejudice. If an individual wants to "fit in" and be accepted by their peers who have the same prejudices, they will continue to believe or pretend to believe and behave exactly the way their peers do because it is far easier to blend in than to stick out as a free thinker and take a stand against prejudice.
But here...
a present for you from me..
::hands you a pebble::
keep it in your pocket. and some day maybe you will choose to toss it in the water.
whether you do or not, you ARE a good person. don't ever let anyone tell you that you're not.
"If you're born a lion, don't bother trying to act tame."
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Wow, Eldon, thank you for a viewpoint on history that I never received - being born and raised a Northerner. But then we know that history books are always written by the victors and of course they make themselves to be the moral victors as well. I wish I had read that at a much earlier age so that my views of Southern culture would have been, I think, radically altered. I think it will be an eye opener for some other northerners as well - except for those intent on standing on the moral high ground.
I read something by Bill Cosby awhile back. It was an open letter to black parents. And he touched on just about every point you brought up about blacks holding themselves back. He has absolutely no tolerance for todays black, youth culture and believes it is demeaning to his race. I've googled like crazy but don't seem to be able to find it anywhere.
Myself, I'm confused about quite a bit in the racial issue. "Don't judge a man until you have walked in his shoes" is something we've heard numerous times. And since I'll never likely have the opportunity to walk in a black man's shoes, I really don't know what all he faces in his day to day existence. Do black youth act the way they do because they are bitter over the way they have been treated? Or are they treated badly because of the way they act? Is it a failure on our part for not assimilating them enough, or do they just resist assimilation? (Lol... it sounds like the Borg!) Is being loud, vulgar and obnoxious a black pride thing? I don't know, and I admit I don't spend a great deal of time pontificating on it. I simply treat everyone with respect unless I am disrespected. And like you, I get to choose whom I associate with. And I tend to associate with people that make me feel comfortable.
I suppose there can be 'niggers' and 'blacks' just as there are 'white folk' and 'white trash'. But black people can use that phrase in a whole different context than we can. My saying the 'n' word and Bill Cosby saying it would cause different reactions. And probably deservedly so. But I think there are a percentage of blacks that view Bill Cosby as an 'Uncle Tom' because he is rich, educated and speaks fluent 'white'. So even he isn't as free to bandy the word about as would be a rapper. I somehow don't think, though, that it is the word being used so much as the context in which it is used. It's probably more the 'intent' behind a word than a word itself. If a person uses a word out of ignorance I don't think it is received nearly so badly. But if the listener is prejudiced against you, for any reason, then you will be attacked for using the word whether it was from ignorance or not. I think I saw that in one poster's response to you. I saw a search for pretext rather than context.
In my view you are a moral, upright and extremely honest individual. I think if I were a black man I would rather deal with you than with three quarters of my contemporaries. I think you would always give a person an honest shake. And though you may have preconceived notions about things, there isn't a human alive that doesn't. You, I think, are capable of learning and changing; many aren't. But there are damn few with the honesty and courage to do an in depth analysis the way you have, and then to display it for everyone to see. You may have your detractors on this board, but they don't measure up to you in either character or moral integrity. I'm giving you the Schroder brownie button. Wear it with distinction.
PS I love the baby pic.
[Updated on: Wed, 06 February 2008 07:04]
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13818
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The ability to distance yourself from the comments and then write honestly about your reaction to them is impressive.
This culture is alien to me and I have no insightful comments to make. I go back to being astounded that the US had segregation during my lifetime. It seems to me that the 60 years of progress has been somewhat delayed into maybe 50 years of resentment and 10 years of progress by those who had chips on their shoulders. Damned shame, because 60 years of real progress would have been somewhat better.
I can't help thinking "If the USA truly is the land of opportunity and the land of the free, why are there so many black folks and so few examples of highly successful black folk?"
I don't know the answer.
I do know one black guy in the USA reasonably well. We've emailed, over the years, chatted, phoned, met. It took him "half his life" to come out to me and tell me he is black. He was scared I'd run away. He's not in the South. He's a gentleman, working in a low paid job, and somehow unable to set his sights above that job despite being well capable of more. There seems to be a threshold that is too high to climb.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Hey Lance, I know I am not as liberal thinking as you in all areas but if you were to talk with me for a while you would find I am quite a lot like you in a lot of ways. I am not really into dislike of anyone really, not even guys who would harrass me when I was a kid walking home from school. Mostly those guys would leave me alone if I just stayed away from them. I was not thought of as being gay (I don't think I was anyway.) but just someone small who could be picked on a bit. I have met some of those very guys later at school reunions and that aspect of things never comes up and we are just school mates meeting after 30 years or whatever.
I am not much into pushing any agenda so I also keep a low profile. I bend as much as I can to avoid someone who is obviously bigoted etc. I will make my thoughts known if it doesn't mean I could get the shit kicked out of me. I wait first to see which way it could go before saying much.
I am not afraid to express how I feel about God and I have my own ideas about it believe me. I am religous and go to a Lutheran church but that is about as far as it goes for me. I think God is what you make him and he gave us all free will so He is not messing with anything at the moment. He is waiting to see how bad it can get and I firmly believe He will step in to save us from ourselves someday. I personally can see a lot of what I believe in a lot of other religions. Where that religion will say you need to love one another or tolerate others who do not believe as you do, how bad can it be? I don't think anyone who lives his life loving all others as himself will be left behind by the God I believe in.
I look around in traveling around in other places in the world and just see how some struggle just to stay alive and figure I am a lot luckier than I think I am. I could have been any one of them and be sitting in a shack in Bolivia or starving in the Sudan. Yes there are a lot of people who figure they are more important than someone else simply because they have more money or a better name etc and they are so wrong.
I must say I dont have much love for rap as it just doesnt qualify as music in my book, but to each his own. I do like the fact that this present generation wears earphones a lot and doesn't make me have to listen to what they want to hear even if I dont like it. I would ask them to turn down the car stereo a bit though so I can sleep - even though it is winter and the windows are all closed and they are two blocks away.....lol
As to celebrating when anyone dies, especially someone who was a bigot or taught things like Falwell did, I tend to feel sad for them as they obviously did not get God's message correctly. I wonder where they will end up if they are sure there is a heaven and hell?
Ken
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Oh just one small point. I stopped using the word black in the 50s and used negro because I saw that was the way negros were called in the south and figured that they were referred to that way as a way of disrespect. So later on I had to go back to using black to refer to a colored person as it was now wrong to use the word negro or colored. Of course it is reasonable to see why colored was a wrong thing to use as that is how all the non-white areas were labeled there.
Ken
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Yes Timmy I have known several black people and that is one of the things they are up against sometimes. Even when someone black accomplishes something really great, it is not often talked about in the black community and held up for young people to see. I don't know exactly why, but it could be the fear that those that do that will be perceived as "uncle toms".
Just as an added bit, the first person to make the rate of E9 in the Navy ( Chief Petty Officer was E7 and E8 and E9 were first made a paygrade in the 60's) was a black guy I went to school with at the University of Kansas. We were both in a program called the Navy Enlisted Scientific Education Program and he was a super guy and got all A's in electrical engineering.
[Updated on: Wed, 06 February 2008 11:05]
Ken
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Dear Lance,
I'm British and don't get the initials. DAR/SAR/SOC/DOC/HRC/OG. Please excuse my ignorance. As you know I agree with your drift. I'd like to understand every sentence.
Love,
Anthony
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Thanks big Brother, you said it so much better than I ever could. Lance there is a song that goes something like "The day they shot old Dixie down", there is a part of the song that says "They snould have never taken the very best". Thats one reason people in the south do not trust Yankees. After the Civil War the Northern souldiers raided the farms and took the best livestock and grain to feed the troops and left the farmers and their families with nothing. Then the carpet baggers came. They cheated and stole the livlyhood of the southerners. Even today Yankees come here thinking were ignorant hillbillies.
Like I said, I treat others the way they treat me. If thats not good enough then thats just to bad.
Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you......
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Hey little bro, thanks for all your support lately on the forum. I know you got flamed because of it, but like we told each other, coming here you need to wear your asbestos longjohns. Sorry I haven't been on the IM so much lately. I just can't seem to get ahead on all the reading for Economics. I'm current, but not ahead like I like to be. It's drivin' me nuts.
Say hello to Seth and Zeke and Jeff. Jon says hey too.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13818
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Eldon wrote:
> ... coming here you need to wear your asbestos longjohns.
That's rather disappointing. I try rather hard not to let that happen.
The last few days I've learnt more about the USA than I have in 55 years. Keep teaching me.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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hey sorry bout that.
DOC/SOC/DOR/SOR = daughters (sons) of confederacty/revolution.
HRC = Human Rights Campaign - works for human rights laws especially gay rights
OG = original gangsta it's slang and meant to be funny (by me)
"If you're born a lion, don't bother trying to act tame."
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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Damn Eldon, you sure don't mince words!! I can clearly see what you are saying, and unfortunately most of what you say is true in todays society. I am 3rd generation Irish/Jew ( ??)when I was a boy growing up I had never even seen a black person until I was about 8-9 years old. I remember asking my father about it and he laughed when I told him that man must of been really hurt in a fire. Years later I recall my father throwing a black man out of his restaurant, and yet he worked side by side with a black man in his landscape business and even attended his funeral. I was once slapped by my father for using the "n" word. He explained to me that the restaurant incident was business, otherwise he had no qualms, and he had better not hear that word out of my mouth again.
Again years later, one thing that war taught me is that we are all brothers and I had three black brothers that I still love to this day. I still keep in touch with one survivor.
I agree with you on todays youth choice of gangsta talk, walk and I hear todays youth calling each other words my father slapped me for some decades ago.
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Thank you Lance,
Love,
Anthony
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You don't "trust Yankees"? Are you serious? I might steal a heart here and there but everyone can keep their livlyhoods as far as I'm concerned. haha "have livelyhood, will travel" hahaha
Let me tell you a story - true story about my family. way back in the day in mid 1700's to be exact my great gteat(great great great whatever he was) grandfather who's name is EXACTLY the same as my actual great grandfather, had settled a big tract of land in a fairly remote and very beautiful area and started his family. he was a big deal and to this day they have a giant bronze statue of him out in front of the courthouse. the tract of land that he settled was and still is a really beautiful area... the house up on a bluff with mountains all blue stretching out into the horizon... lush green valleys and forests as far as the eye can see, with creeks and a great big river. I've stood there with the wind in my hair and envisioned what it must have looked like to him back then.
Like most families they had a LOT of children, fourteen. 7 girls and 7 boys, the oldest being in his teens.
anyway one day my (great etc) grandfather and his men went on a trip to get salt. he left the two oldest boys in charge and asked them to mend a fence in one of the pastures. but being a nice day, right after their dad left, these boys decided to go deer hunting instead and told the third and fourth oldest boys who like 12 and 14, that they had to fix the fence and rode off in the opposite direction from the way the dad had gone.
Of course, the kids all sympathized because their brothers couldn't play, so they all sneaked out of the house and followed. they played down by the river where they weren't allowed and the boys hurried to finish their work so they could join the fun. the oldest daughter stayed with the mom (my great etc grandmother) and the baby and smallest children.
A small party of Indians was out looking for horses and saw the children so far away from the house, and they decided to try to steal the kids. they attacked without warning and immediately killed one of the older brothers. all the little kids ran screaming towards the house with the other brother behind them. the oldest girl turned back and fought with the indians so that the little kids could get away. the indians killed her and caught the other brother but the little kids were too close to the house. a man had dropped by to visit and was in the yard talking to my (great etc) grandmother when the kids came screaming into sight. when the indians saw that he had a gun, they stopped and the man held them at bay with his loaded gun. if he had shot, they would have rushed the house because his gun would have been empty. all the rest of the kids made it into the house. the indians scalped the two bodies, taking the brother hostage. the family went to a neighbors.
my (great etc) grandpa and his brother had seen signs of indians so they had turned around and headed back home to make sure the family was safe. when they got home they found the two bodies of the older boy and girl in the pasture and the house completely deserted. they thought the whole family had been killed or captured. they rushed to the fort, found out that one of the boys was taken captive, and rode out after him.
the indians, knowing they might be pursued, split up. my (great etc) grandpa, chose the wrong group to follow. he decided to follow the horse track thinking the group with horses would have his son.chose the wrong group to follow, and they caught up to the indians and killed them but by then, the group with his son was too far ahead for them to catch up.
so he went back, got some provisions, and a group of men from the settlement and headed out. he went across an entire state and across the ohio river to a well known indian settlement where he hoped he could barter for his son's life.
but when he got there, he saw his son had been burned at the stake. he was too late. he kicked away the remaining, still-burning sticks of wood. He recovered the body and with the loan of a horse from the chief, he brought his son's body home and buried it on the hill behind the house.
That cemetery is still there. most of that family was eventually buried there and generations after them. we still put flowers on the graves.
.......
and thats why people in my family dont trust indians. hahaha j/k
nah we got over it. i personally dont have the attention span to hold onto the past. haha
this is a true story. i've been to indian reservations all over the u.s. and I still have my scalp! haha
[Updated on: Wed, 06 February 2008 16:57]
"If you're born a lion, don't bother trying to act tame."
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Nice story Lance and I have no doubt its true. My family was given their land grant in 1789 consisting of 5000 achers. This land grant is still in tact. The house was built in 1830, refurbished in in the 50s and completely rebuilt in the 70s. My Grandpa gave the historical society a log cabin found on the property that was built in 1715. When they moved it they found arrows stuck in the logs. We dont hate the indians either and Im one quarter Dakota Soux. You know the ones who killed Custer. I never said We hated the Yankees, only that we dont trust them. Where I live we have a lot of Yankees moved in here. They all have one thing in common. they all think we are ignorant hillbillies. You can him and haw and talk around it all day long but its the truth and you know it. Even in your writting the "Im better than you attitude" Shows thru.
One question I have. If the north is such a great place, why does everybody retire and move south?
Sweet dreams till sunbeams find you......
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It's bad enough that we tip-toe all around these issues in school, and have to say things that are "politically correct" in class and in school or get branded as a neo-Nazi racist. All I have done here is state my personal beliefs and opinions that I have developed based on my own observations.
I don't advocate a return to Jim Crow and the "separate-but-equal" facilities which were anything BUT equal for black people, but I'm tired of the hypocracy of people from up North about race.
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Well ToTo, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore.
Hey, did you get any of the twisters that hit central Tennessee? It's all over the news here and we're already taking up collections to help our sister state. Was that natural gas explosion near you? We get storms off the Atlantic and flood tides but hardly ever a twister.
Love 4 U Curt.
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oh hey man. it i give that impression, i'm sorry. I'm really sorry if i came across that way. i'm a homeless gypsy.
in answer to your question - the weather.
Speaking of which I'm headed out for the beach and then back on tour. it was fun talking to all of you. i'll check back one of these days to see whats goin on.
::hugs::
~Lance
[Updated on: Wed, 06 February 2008 17:56]
"If you're born a lion, don't bother trying to act tame."
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Good thing I didnt give you a rock. hahaha
"If you're born a lion, don't bother trying to act tame."
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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It must be an American thing because any progressive city-dweller in Melbourne would let their child marry a black, aboriginal, asian, jew, hispanic or anyone other race known to man.
There is a cultural split in America. But it doesn't have to be based on skin-colour even though it often is. Barrack Obama, for example, is culturally a middle-upper class white male. True he isn't of slave decent. But there would be blacks of slave decent that are culturally middle-upper class white people.
Japanese treatment of Ainu is bad. Possibly worse than Americans of Native Americans or Australians of Aboriginals. But Japanese aren't the most racist people I've encountered- not at all. Japanese people simply take compartmentalised thinking to a new level. You are either "normal" or not. Being single or gay or an artist is not acceptable. Japanese people are expected to conform, white people aren't Japanese and are considered incapable of conforming.
I'm not going to pat you on the back for your views, Eldon. Nor for sharing them. What's that they say about opinions?
But you are entitled to yours. I agree with points, disagree with others.
I do think affirmative action is the thing holding blacks back as much as helping them. And there is still racism. If no white person in America would let a black marry their daughter, if a black faces disadvantages when seeking employment, when you compare the entire black population to "white trash" it's no wonder a lot of blacks are still ghetto.
Equal opportunity (rather than favourable treatment) is the only way black people will be able to truly integrate into America, in my opinion. That doesn't mean being ashamed of your heritage, but rather judging each person on their merits. You don't like being seen as a redneck racist, I'm sure some blacks don't like being seen as "gangsta rappers".
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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>The last few days I've learnt more about the USA than I have in 55 years. Keep teaching me.
Embarrassingly enough, so have I. It seems you don't have to be a foreigner to be ignorant of history or culture. If you are schooled to believe one way then that's the way you are going to believe. And I was raised by the victors of that early war and on the victor's propaganda. And to be honest, yes, my perception of Southern white people has been that they are all a bunch of 'crackers'; meaning inbreds or poor white trash. It's an embarrassing thing to admit, especially after the evidence of my bigotry is presented to me. And I haven't even been bigoted against someone of obvious racial differences; my bigotry was directed towards a social strata of my own race - Southerners. I wish the hell the computer and this board had been here fifty years ago during my most formative years.
It's small wonder that the white inhabitants of South Carolina are distrustful of the Northerners in their midst. And I truly don't understand why Lance doesn't understand the 'why' of it even after reading these posts. I don't even have to go there to realize that I would likely be perceived as the bigoted, superior feeling individual that comes from my Northern upbringing. I'm sure they've all been exposed to enough Northerners to know that, in general, they are perceived as the poor white cousins. They don't see Lance as the good-hearted, loving, generous individual he is on the inside. They simply see him as one of 'them'.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Incidentally, you said you've never seen a black person, well I've never seen a white person either. Unless you count albinos, but even they have a pinkish hue.
You consistently say you're a southerner, but compared to me, in Australia, you're way up North.
Black, white, southerner, they are all comparative terms. None of them are scientifically accurate, but they work well for normal conversation.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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Benji
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Likes it here |
Location: USA
Registered: August 2007
Messages: 297
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If that was for me, I said I didn't see a black person until I was around 8-9 years old, and then I thought the poor man had been burned in a fire.
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Dear Saben, I implore you to read the speech by Bill Cosby that Eldon located.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/billcosbypoundcakespeech.htm
This black man's observation is that it isn't the white man that's holding the black man back from advancing. He even sites all the advantages that they have received to enable them to pull themselves up by the bootstraps - so to speak. He lays the blame directly on parenting and the fact the black man and woman in the ghetto never received any. This sounds like a very valid argument. When kids raise themselves then the adults they turn into are obviously going to be selfish, self-serving individuals. And the blame for this doesn't fall upon the white population, bigoted or not. The blame rests with people who have kids when they are still children themselves and have no perception of what it is to parent. Of things that need to be done to help pull people out of the ghetto, giving black kids parents has to rank pretty high. Of course there is racism and bigotry. But a person with a healthy self esteem and who is taught proper values is capable of rising above that. If you look at the backgrounds of the blacks who have risen to places of prominence in our society, you see that there is a common denominator amongst them - they were parented.
Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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JL
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Getting started |
Location: US
Registered: December 2004
Messages: 24
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Your post was (is) pretty long, so I'm not even gonna attempt to respond to all of it. I hope this is okay.
It's ok for blacks to have "Black Pride" and all the rest of it, but let me say that I'm not ashamed that my family owned slaves, and there's a furor.
To me racial/sexual/ethnic pride of any kind is somewhat incomprehensible. Why be proud of something you didn't earn? I say that to say that I am equally confused by your Southern pride as I am by Black pride and gay pride.
I honestly didn't set out to be racist or elitist when I described black persons as Negroes or colored people. ... Older people like my mom and dad will use "colored" sometimes, but nobody takes offense because that's used nicely and not as a pejorative.
As I explained previously, calling someone black "colored" or a "Negro" is offensive only in that it suggests the speaker has an outdated and most likely slightly racist perspective.
But yet black kids our age use it constantly among themselves. "Hey, ma nigga!" "Git yo ass ova heah nigga!" "Yo nigga you so be one dumb ass mu'thafuckin' nigga!" "Why yo go an' drap dat ball nigga, yo one sorry mu'thafuckah!" And you'd think it was just the males who say these things, but it's not! The girls are sometimes worse!
There's an enormous (but somewhat ambiguous and maybe arbitrary) between the words "nigger" and "nigga." Nigga is essentially the black version of "dude," while "nigger" has only negative conversations (though I must say, some black people seem to make a distinction between a regular black person/person and a "nigga". I don't completely understand this distinction).
Why would I think it was just the males who used this word? And why does the use of this word bother you so much?
I hold doors for black men and women who are my seniors, and say "sir" and "ma'am" to them. I hold doors and do other courtesies for black girls in school and for black ladies in public. Jon does the same. Dan does the same. It's what a gentleman does. When a black person waits on me in a store or in a restaurant, I thank them properly and don't treat them like a servant. I greet my black acquaintences with friendliness and treat them respectfully and courteously. But while I treat my black friends the same as I treat my white friends, the black guys "change" when they speak to one of us. I hate to say something like this, but my black acquaintences "tone down" their "blackness" when they interact with we white guys. They don't do the gangsta thing as much and use mu'thafuckin' as every other word. They don't make these weird jabbing motions with their fingers and hands either like they are trying to be rap stars.
I'm not sure why you thought it was important to say that you do'nt treat black people like servants. Why would this even be an option?
This "black change" is exactly the same as the way in which you address adults who you respect (and would like to be respected by) in a manner more polite than how you would address your peers. It's the difference between the way you talk to your parents and the way you talk to your friends. I'd be willing to bet that many of the black kids don't even notice they're doing this (kind of how native speakers of a language will naturally slip into it when they hear it spoken [on a tangent: ebonics is, linguistically speaking, a different language from standard American English, as is Southern English and so on]).
I don't really understand what you were saying/trying to achieve in the next few paragraphs. The fact that the expressed mindset is widespread where you live and among your friends does not make it okay. It just doesn't.
You say you can't get past the differences between blacks and whites, would you mind spelling out EXACTLY what these differences are? I'm not asking this to be a jerk, really, I'd just like you to spell it all out for me (really what I'm asking is for you to treat me like I'm stupid).
black people have received more government assistance, more private assistance, more special programs, more entitlement programs, more allowances in general than any other minority in history, and I feel compelled to say that any problems black people face today are largely of the black community's own making. I might not invite black guys to a barbeque, and we might not socialize, but I don't advocate holding anyone back just because of the color of their skin.
I will say that I'm not a huge fan of Affirmative Action (though I do think a similar, fairer system could be instituted based upon economic status). But I don't think many/most of the black communities problems are of their own doing, especially when there are many people with mindsets like yours (Sorry, I couldn't think of a nicer way to put that).
With regard to your last point, you say this, but then later you say you would hire a Hispanic person over a black person any day. Is this not "holding someone back because of the color of their skin"?
wouldn't it be natural to assume, or to theorize, that the "mother culture" of the place of origin would be the most advanced?
Absolutely not. I'm actually not even sure what the justification would be for this line of thinking.
Most of Africa's land is not farmable. Farming is one of the main (if not the main) things that lead to the "advancement" of other societies. I explained this in more detail in the other post, but I can retype it if you want.
By the way, the use of "advanced" with regards to cultural differences and changes through time is as inaccurate as describing humans as more advanced than crocodiles. We are not. In terms of cultural and biological evolution, advancement is a somewhat meaningless concept. The "goal" of evolution is to make organisms better suited to their environments--crocodiles have remained essentially unchanged for much longer than humans have, this may make them "better" (though I doubt this), but not more advanced. Similarly, the human's cognitive capabilities and genetic complexities do not make us more advanced, it just means it took longer (and with more adjustments) to make us suited to the environment.
Similarly, the reasons African cultures were without many things in the western world was simply because they didn't need them. In evolution (bio & cultural) as in "real life" necessity is the mother of invention. There was no need for writing, no way to farm, no need for governments as complex as those in Europe (because hunter-gatherer groups remained small). Complete digression, here, and I apologize.
why is Africa such a quagmire today? Was nothing "retained?"
Because many of the fights are between ethnic groups who, rather than speaking about things, feel the problem is better solved by "ethnic cleansing." It's obviously much more ocmplicated than this and has a lot to do with Africa's lackluster climate, financial situation (brought on by the climate probably), cultural differences within the continent, and general exclusion from the rest of the world.
If you listen to black kids, they don't talk with each other, they yell at each other. When they're out in a group, they act out and strut around and as my grandmom would say, "they force you to dislike them."
The first part of this is simply not true. I've noticed that many black people tend to speak with more emphasis and more enthusiastically than white people do, which may be mistaken as yelling. And honestly, they don't force you to dislike them, you seem to have a predisposition towards it and acknowledge mainly(only?) the negative qualities.
But here if a white kid "acts black" or "goes all yo-ma-nigga" they get called wigger. That's short for "white nigger."
Yeah. We have that up here.
They sort of exist in parallel with each other and there's some interweaving going on at the edges.
This actually created a very interesting (and nice!) image in my mind. One that I think is probably very accurate of the situation. But recently I think the black line has been moving closer to and interacting more with the white one.
And I see this as an issue, because at times you seem to be criticising me because of my lack of appreciation for black culture, while you are seemingly blowing off three hundred years of my cultural heritage. If blacks are who they are because of three hundred years of black experiences, then certainly I am who I am because of three hundred years of white experiences. I'm not saying one is better than the other. Above you made a comment about slavery being the root of all the black's problems, yet you admit you know nothing about the real history of black slavery in the Southern States.
I didn't say I knew nothing about the "real history," I just said I'd never heard of the things you'd mentioned. I did read the rest of your post, I just didn't have any comment on it. And, just to clarify, the culture I was referring to with "...culture to which I'm not really connected" was the black slaves (though my statement applies equally to yours and the white slave owners, etc.).
White people do not want to live around black people. Black people move in, regardless of social or economic status, and white people start looking around for another all-white suburb. Pure and simple.
This is becoming less and less true. Nowadays it is commonly believed that any black person who moves into a "white" neighborhood deserves to be there and has enough in common with the other residents to not cause problems. Presumably this is the same as with any other family, of any race, moving into a new neighborhood.
When a man is transferred into a new area, and goes to the real estate agents, the first question out of his mouth is "how are the schools?" And that is still code for "how racially mixed are the schools?"
No, it's not.
Because it is an unfortunate fact of American life that the higher the black enrollment in a public school, the lower the overall academic performance. The higher the black enrollment in a school, the worse the discipline, the higher incidence of violence and the higher the drop-out rate.
The schools with the highest black populations tend to be found in very poor areas. I think you will find that lowered academic performance, higher violence & dropout rates are associated more with poverty than race. Also, this seems to suggest that black people are less intelligent than white people, if you are not implying this I apologize, but I figured I might as well point out that there is little to no significant differences between blacks and whites of similar socioeconomic status.
But the AP classes are 95% white.
This is something I noticed, too, while I was in high school and I went to the best school (private or public) in my state. It seemed that this was because, no matter the circumstances, being smart is still somewhat unacceptable in the black community. It's seen as "assimilating" or "being white." I think this is absolutely shameful, ridiculous and sad, and it unfortunately reinforces the argument that at least some of the oppression felt in the black community is of its own doing.
I like and associate socially with everybody except for African-Americans. Other minorities invite me to their homes, and I invite them to mine.
This is honestly just too bad. I hate saying this because, like someone else said, it's kind of racist in itself, but I'd like to hear what would happen if you got to know (even befriend) a black person. I would hope it would show you that there's really not much of a difference, but maybe the opposite would happen. Maybe in college something like this could happen.
I will hire Hispanic men over black men any day
Even if they are equally qualified?
Anyway, this was long, sorry about that.
JL
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Guys, thanks one and all, especially Lance, JL and Saben for making me take deeper looks into myself than I would have, and for giving me things to massively think over.
I have to retire from this for a while. I'm not tired of the discussion, and I don't like to run from confrontation, but things are happening for me now that I need to concentrate on more than I need to engage in discussions here on the forum. School, the farm and my chores and what my dad relies on me to do, and some social drama are claiming my attention.
I'm not one of those natural students like Jon and Daniel and Curtis. For me A's come only with lots of sweat equity attached, and I can feel myself slipping and worrying too much about "this" and not enough about "that."
I hope you guys will continue this discussion and I'll try to get back on the weekends.
Lance, for the record, I picked up a river pebble that had been worn smooth, and I'm carrying it now. Thanks for that thought. Will I ever throw it into the river? Let's just say my mind isn't as sure of things as it once was.
Love you guys.
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One of my pupils from years ago was so white that his fellows nicknamed him Ghostie. (He wasn't albino.)
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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JL asked:
>You say you can't get past the differences between blacks and whites, would you mind spelling out EXACTLY what these differences are?<
He then goes on to give a partial answer in his own post.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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JL
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Getting started |
Location: US
Registered: December 2004
Messages: 24
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Where? I know he mentions various black mannerisms ("mu'thafuckin' as every other word") and styles of dress (sagging pants) here and there, but beyond that I can't really find anything. The differences he sees are scattered throughout the post(s), and I just wanted a straight list of them so I could better understand where he was coming from.
JL
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Curtis wrote:
>Even today Yankees come here thinking we're ignorant hillbillies.<
Here's my two pennyworth - a couple of years ago my father and I were spending the night at a hotel outside Kamloops BC. At dinner we shared a table with a Southern gentleman and his lady. We found them absolutely charming, cultured and very good company; perhaps a little old fashioned. They still stand out when I think back to all the people we met on that trip.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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He = JL in this instance.
Hugs
N
I dream of boys with big bulges in their trousers,
Never of girls with big bulges in their blouses.
…and look forward to meeting you in Cóito.
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JL
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Getting started |
Location: US
Registered: December 2004
Messages: 24
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I really shouldn't participate in online discussions like this until I get better at reading between the lines because I'm not very good at it. I say this because I don't really understand what you're getting at here. Do you mean that I'm projecting my own opinions and views onto Eldon('s post)? I promise I'm not being intentionally difficult or obtuse.
JL
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Youth crisis hot-line 866-488-7386, 24 hr (U.S.A.)
There are people who want to help you cope with being you.
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Thanks Eldon. I'm glad my words were able to help you think about your thoughts. I said I wasn't going to pat you on the back for sharing your views, but I will pat you on the back for re-evaluating them. The first step is identifying your thoughts, the second step is evaluating them, the third step, changing them if necessary.
We're all a product of our experiences. I don't see the North as any better or worse than the South. A lot of what you said has merit. A lot, I think, is based on rhetoric rather than experience.
Experience is one of the best ways to change the way you think. The more experiences you have in life the more of a balanced perspective you can have on things.
I'm lucky, I think. I grew up a Mormon, from a single-parent family. Lived in "white trash" suburbs, went to both public and private schools. Realised I was gay, lived in Japan. Went to the second best University in Australia. Almost failed due to depression and an addiction to a computer game. Found a boy I want to spend the rest of my life with.
I've had a lot of experiences a lot of others may never have. Yet I still have a lot to learn. I still have a tendency to be an "intellectual snob" and dismiss people who aren't as educated as me. I also have a tendency to buy into educated rhetoric- such as treating what is posted on wikipedia as fact. I hope I can have some more experiences in life that'll teach me more. Because if I stop having new experiences I worry that I'll stop growing.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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No, Benji. That was targeted towards Eldon who said he's never seen a "black" person, only shades of brown.
My reply was that I've never seen a white person, only shades of tan and pink 
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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Nigel was saying that you asked Eldon what the differences were between black and white, then you continued on and in the course of your post highlighted and discussed some of the differences.
As I said in my other post- I think the difference is cultural.
There are a few "culturally white" black people (Obama) that are no different from white people, however. In my opinion at least. Or at the very least the difference is no more divergent from the norm than the difference between a random white person and the "average" white person.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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I say that to say that I am equally confused by your Southern pride as I am by Black pride and gay pride.
I went to a pride parade the other day. Everyone was applauding. It was really weird to get applause for something that's just another part of my life now.
When I first came out, though. That was an achievement. I deserved applause then. Now? Living as a gay man isn't hard for me- it's easier than living as straight would be!
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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saben
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On fire! |
Registered: May 2003
Messages: 1537
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The first person I met from South Carolina amazed me- I was expecting a Southern hick and instead I heard the sexiest accent I've heard! I love the "southern beau/ belle" accent  But my stereotypical image of the South is still "Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!" with the wonderful trash on Springer.
Look at this tree. I cannot make it blossom when it suits me nor make it bear fruit before its time [...] No matter what you do, that seed will grow to be a peach tree. You may wish for an apple or an orange, but you will get a peach.
Master Oogway
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No, I don't mince words. 
Re-establishing my priorities. 
