I expect simple behaviours here. Friendship, and love. Any advice should be from the perspective of the person asking, not the person giving! We have had to make new membership moderated to combat the huge number of spammers who register
Location: Surrey, UK
Registered: March 2015
Messages: 11
It may be that the I am being just a little bit silly here or somewhat affected by these current romance stories that I am reading at the moment. It got me wondering if anyone has encountered the romantic passion as displayed in some of the stories?
I have been truly gripped by say the stories by Michal Arram. Personally, as a gay man I am a utter and total failure. I should have my membership revoked and cast among the straights for the use that I am. I am not bitter at being should a total loss in this respect because you can't succeed at everything - I have managed to keep the house plants alive. As I read these wonderful stories into the early hours on the old iPad and I find myself wondering what it must be like to be kissed by some one or even acknowledged that I am alive. I am not the shy timed sort by any means but I do freely admit that I am totally void of any sex appeal or looks, although I do recall the looks improved during the last power cut that we had. My mother used to say to me as a teenager, that I had a face that only a mother could love.
As a teenager I ached to have a romantic something or other. I admit that the closed culture of the 80's wouldn't allow this to be possible without risking serious injury. I do wonder if the modern teenager knows how lucky they are! I am very successful at making friends because I bring healing into the lives of other people. I would certainly class myself as the big brother type to most of my gay friends who do sincerely love me in that function. As I it would seem rapidly approach my fifties it would seem to me almost certain now that I'll never hear that long ached for phrase, 'I love you'. Those guys that I have thought of uttered that too in the past have reacted from that stinging look of sympathy in their eyes to abject horror or the worse one was nervous laughter never to be seen again. Having said that I am not that kind of guy who spends hours on the internet longingly looking at profile after profile. I focus on other things that I know I can be good at without inflicting pain or nausea on other who just want to pick up the boy in the very tight jeans in the hope of a good lay.
There must be other romantics out there who have come together based on to start with the physical but what keeps them together is the emotional connection. Some authors have used the phrase 'devotional love' and my question is simple. Can these words become real? Does true love live in the gay world or am I just banging my head against that unmovable brick wall?
The romantic in me says there is still hope but the realist keeps saying to me that I'll go to my grave without ever once feeling a warm embrace or hear sweet words whispered in my ears that come directly from the heart.
I have laid myself genuinely open and I would hope to get a genuine answer in return. I am not looking for cruelness because I have had far too many years of that already.
Thanks for reading and more thanks for answering.
Chris
[Updated on: Fri, 27 March 2015 17:24] by Moderator
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
Edited your font so it could be read. Wow, that was tiny!!
First, I have not experienced love in the gay world. I argue, though, that love is love is love, and is no respecter of sex or orientation of the beloved the one desiring to be loved. There is also a huge difference between love and sex. The intersection between the two is excellent, either is good.
I have fallen deeply in love twice, and had it returned once. It happens to be a heterosexual relationship despite my being 100% homosexual. Thus there are challenges with it, but I recognised that I loved her, despite her being a girl, and she recognised that she loved me. And it was hot, heady, amazing and all you read in the stories, but her penis is an innie and I would prefer an outie. The relationhip has lasted, though we have had problems. It has lasted 36 years.
Two gay friends of ours have been together 23 years. They had the heady times, too. They are deeply in love, but no longer have sex with each other. Instead they enjoy other gentlemen. One is 60 the other 50. I suspect the time they grew up in militated against a committed homosexual relationship. The harsh media treatment of homosexual gentlemen in the UK in 1967 when we became legal hurt a great many of us. Some recovered, others made the best of it.
One of our authors was deeply in romantic love with another gentleman his own age, and in a hot, heady, committed relationship. That relationship foundered because the other chap wanted to 'experience being gay', poor soul, instead of seeing the jewel he had in his relationship. He entered the gay scene in search of the better orgasm, the more perfect abs.
Another author here has been in a committed relationship with his partner, a gay partner, since about 2000. I wrote the sex and self exploration pages for them. Partner was emotionally incapable of doing what he most wanted, which was to be penetrated by his partner, and my pages, written by a virgin, helped and they look set to stay together for ever. It was hot and heady.
Someone who used to be published here travelled from Ohio to Louisana to meet his partner, sight unseen. They clicked at once, however unlikely that might seem, and they returned to Ohio. That was a long car trip. This is the second long term relationship travelling boy has been in. His first was ended by baseball bats in Greenwich Village as he and his first love walked home from a restaurant. The current relationship has been stormy, but has lasted
I think those times caused poor self imagine for the homosexual boy and man. Poor self image makes us unlovable. We become a self fulfilling prophecy of being unworthy, and thus we create our own downfall. We become as unlovable as we say we are to ourselves.
Wishing to be loved so hard that it hurts is the same as attending a job interview when desperate to land the job. It shows on our faces and we, somehow, despite being well qualified, never land that job. I've been interviewed in that state myself, and I've interviewed others in that state. It's obvious. It's unprepossessing, and they fail, even when they would be perfect for the job.
Now migrate that towards your situation.
I am 100% sure that you are lovable. I wonder how much your overwhelming desire to be shown love is written on your face, your body language? You may know the answer, or you may analyse yourself a little, perhaps with a trusted friend, and work the answer out. I have no answers. I can make sure, though, that you ask the right questions.
Location: Surrey, UK
Registered: March 2015
Messages: 11
Thank you for an interesting answer. While its true that I have gained a battle scar or two over the years - in one case while attending a blind date. I advised him that I was not an oil painting as they say. I can only assume that he was either shocked or had some kind of seizure because the next thing I knew this car was heading straight for me and I had to dive into a bush to avoid getting hit. He never even stopped to claim his bumper that came off as he drove at speed out of a car park in Guildford, clipping the wall as he went. He later sent a text saying that he thought I was exaggerating but he felt that I had undersold the issue of my looks. Thankfully, since then I have had no cars roar in my direction although the squirrel in the bush that I dived into was most put out that I had interrupted his intimate time with the Mrs.
My best and most loved friend is always telling me that he can't understand why I have spent my entire life on my own. He always refers to my depth of personality, good humour, and he is always telling me that he that I am one of the most confident people he knows and I have to be in my line of work. He always says that I am unaware of people that are casting looks in my direction but I feel that they are looking at him rather than me because he is utterly beautiful and has the body that most people desire.
I do acknowledge that some people are after sex only and that is ok but that has no interest for me. I like the notion of getting to know some one slowly over time and developing a kind of bond which hopefully will create a solid foundation. I am totally successful in this regard to friendships having had the same circle for many years. As I have said I do not lunge at people and I am respectful of their space. In fact former work colleagues had assumed that i had been married for twenty years with children in their teens because I am a good communicator with young people. It came as quick a shock for them to learn that not only was I single but I'd never as much as dozed off next to someone on the bus. I present a image of contentment and generally speaking I am. I have my cats to amuse me and provide endless purrs in the evening which I find a comfort.
If the truth be known its only since I have had more time to read these stories of teen romance that it has caused me to ponder and examine the life I had lived thus far. I have seen friends that have all but been stalked by other guys who won't take no for an answer and the distress that has caused them. I have felt sorrow for the pain that they have gone through and I have seen people who have broken up both gay and straight and its been terrible to witness. Yet part of me feels that I wouldn't mind going through a bit of pain to have a chance to experience the good times.
The other major problem for me now is that I have spent my entire life alone and I wonder if I would be able to now cope with someone fully in my life and that's why I like the getting to know you process. I dare say like most things I have experienced thus far this renewed longing will, in time get dimmer, as its done before and then things will revert back to normal. Its a comfort though to know that I can still feel some sort of passion even if it is only through the words of some quality writing on these pages.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
Even the ugliest among us have people who will love them, given the chance. The challenge is that one has to kiss a lot of frogs to find the prince unless one is very lucky. If you are the frog, what happens when the prince kisses you?
Love is not a physical thing, its fleeting, and you can miss it unless you grasp it, nurture it and make it yours. But to describe it is impossible. There are physical symptoms, heart rate, inability to make sentences make sense, that sort of stuff. Mainly, though, it;s the need to have that person in one's life, always and forever.
Companionship can also grow into love. Look at arranged marriages. Most work well. Some never will.
You need to cast your net where fish swim. It's safer to cast it on the shore, but it has to go into the water. Risk and learn to handle, then enjoy, rejection. And improve your brochure. Even if you have two heads and three nostrils per nose, a firmly toned body, and excellence of personal grooming, those do no harm. "Men's nights' at the gym can, I am told, be a source of contact and a newly widened circle of friends. Your current gay friends will, if asked, help, too.
Location: Western US
Registered: October 2014
Messages: 136
Hi Chris -
Obviously a heartfelt question, and not one I'd want to answer - or have answered - harshly.
I wish that I had some good solid answers for you, but I'm not all that far distant. Growing up it was just never an option. Not a wild religious thing or even a morality issue. It Just Wasn't Done. (Offered in the best possible British accent of an Irish heritage mid-West American boy.) By the time I got into the world, the whole science of relationships was about as foreign to me as recipes for beef tongue written in Sanskrit.
Oddly enough, about ten years after graduation, my college roommate sent me a note in wich he came out to me. I immediately called him and we talked long into the night about what could, couldn't, and never did happen. One comment I remember him make was, 'I'm not sure what you'd think about him, but he's perfect for me.' I took it at face value and asked no question.
Perhaps the right time and person hasn't yet crossed your path (or mine, for that matter). So for now, in the words of Neil Diamond, "I'll be what I am, a solitary man."
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
One forum member who has now moved on, he was a solitary man. He, too, had excellent reasons. He was in his mid forties when he found love, and not for want of exploring it before. Now he has been in a relationship for three or so years.
My advice to him had been simple. Follow the thread of a possible relationship until that thread ends. You or the other person may choose when it ends, or it may peter out. If it ends, find another. Whatever happens you will have fun, and you expose yourself to the risk of finding the right person.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
I found two videos that I think may encapsulate what you are doing:
The trailer shows a normal lad, not hugely good looking, ging through his life surrounding his mother's death. When you see the excerpt you will hardly believe that it is the same movie
This shows something quite different. Our hero now has a hero of his own, a boy who embodies blond perfection, regular features, glorious hair, a sweet smile, a cute nose. He is a boy I'd like to be.
But those boys were unattainable, weren't they? We never dared to approach them, became tongue tied when we tried to talk to them. Indeed, I wonder from the excerpt if the blond boy is hero boy's dream. But that is unimportant.
From what you say I think you are living the trailer, where all the cares and worries are, not the excerpt, where life is so much more simple. Approach the blond boy, tell him how you would like to get to know him and feel even a little awkward about it. As you get to know him then do, together whatever you will do together. If it's long walks on fell tops, or romantic snuggles in front of a log fire, do those things. Follow the thread wherever it leads.
Location: Surrey, UK
Registered: March 2015
Messages: 11
Hi Timmy,
In answer to your question I have gone up to guys that I thought might have been receptive or at least understanding. I have taken the risk and in some cases I was let down rather very gently and with much kindness. In other people have just laughed uncontrollably and in one case I was told by someone that they would rather go straight than even touch me. An event in my childhood let me understanding what crossing personal space means and how it would violate another person if ones advances where not welcome. A result of that event is that my most sincere wish is not to hurt other people by my own actions or words. My highest value in life to to respect other people's right to say no. I never got that respect nor that right it was taken away with force and a lot of pain. By nature now I only venture down that road if I am sure that my advances would not insult or hurt the other person.
I am more used to the rejections and never had a positive result from my dating attempts. The people that I have encountered have been people that I have got to know reasonably well and in some cases like me were wanting to meeting someone but I have established that I am the lowest line that even the most desperate for affection are not willing to cross and I as always respect that.
I did have friends at school of course but unlike the lads in the clip I was the friend that watched the bikes while others did the fun thing, I was the guardian of the coats at dances and I was the go to friend when everyone else broke up with their boyfriend or girlfriend - I was the solid shoulder to cry on, he that made things ok for others.
The one friend whom I declared myself to did turn me down because he say that it would break his heart to lose me as a friend if it went wrong and he couldn't stand that. In any case he wants the six pack, the gym body and someone who can throw him around the bedroom. I am not any of those things but I have experienced a closeness with him like I have with none other. I always used to joke that we were boyfriends but without the sex or intimate love. The amount of times we do get picked out as partners has been numerous and a maybe two or three seconds I feel a kind of fulfillment and certainly he has done wonders to make my isolation feel less than it is. He is the sweetest person I know and the most loving. I have no doubts in my mind that he loves me with all his heart and enjoys spending time in my company. I value and have grown in the friendship and it has turned out so much better than I could have ever hoped. He was of course right this would have all been lost had I still had my mind set on the other road. I do love him but in a very different way.
While I may be very willing to do the long walks and get to know someone romantically as you suggest the problem arises when the other boy in question keeps saying no. Then those walks become pointless. I can only take the next step when the boy says yes and after years of gentle enquires the answer remains a firm no. Not that I am obsessed about it because I am not. I have a life to lead as well.
I hope I have explained the situation a little bit more clearly.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
I see a good few people who have been desperately rude and unkind. How lucky that they let you know so clearly that they are total bastards; how unpleasant to discover it that way.
It is not, absolutely not, a violation of personal space to express an interest. The violation is the inexorable pursuit of the person, not the initial expression.
I seems to me that you can not hurt me by telling me you are interested in me. I can hurt you by reacting hatefully. However, your experiences lead you to predict the rejection and ascribe hurt to it before it has had the chance to happen.
Are you fishing in the correct pond? Once one passes about 19 one will no longer have the skin and muscle tone alleged to be perfection, yet those who chase the better orgasm, the better abs, they fish in that pond, poor devils.
You can, should you choose, improve your body and physique, but not with a 'now I must be attractive' view; rather it needs to be with an 'I feel better now' view. Ok, life is harder by not being an adonis and by being gay, but look at the non adonis types that have partners? Elton John is no oil painting either, you know!
Location: Surrey, UK
Registered: March 2015
Messages: 11
Yes, the picture is indeed me even if its a bit distorted.
As for the ponds to fish from being of an age now I tend to pretty much stick to people from my own era. I am not dismissing the younger folk because they have their own natural gifts and talents.
My desire is simple really, someone that has a nice smile, has something to say with a personalty and has a regard for other people and the animals that we share our planet.
The project for 2015 is body improvement but based mainly on maintaining good health rather than making ones body more attractive but that would be a bonus. I have over the last couple of years been changing eating habits for the better but even the best of us gets confused by hidden sugars that producers seem to hid in food. I now spend more time staring at labels at food labels in supermarkets than actually doing shopping. I am convinced Mrs Green at Tesco believes that I am the new store detective since I spend a vast amount of time lurking with intent around the pasta source section.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
"Quote:"
Topher wrote on Tue, 31 March 2015 16:03Yes, the picture is indeed me even if its a bit distorted.
As for the ponds to fish from being of an age now I tend to pretty much stick to people from my own era. I am not dismissing the younger folk because they have their own natural gifts and talents.
My desire is simple really, someone that has a nice smile, has something to say with a personalty and has a regard for other people and the animals that we share our planet.
The project for 2015 is body improvement but based mainly on maintaining good health rather than making ones body more attractive but that would be a bonus. I have over the last couple of years been changing eating habits for the better but even the best of us gets confused by hidden sugars that producers seem to hid in food. I now spend more time staring at labels at food labels in supermarkets than actually doing shopping. I am convinced Mrs Green at Tesco believes that I am the new store detective since I spend a vast amount of time lurking with intent around the pasta source section.
--
I have followed the breadcrumbs you have left for us and viewed your profile pictures on the social media and other sites they lead to. I can tell you without fear or favour that you are normal looking. You have a pleasant face, though are definitely tubby, possibly, from your forearms, in the Charles Campion league (food critic). Now he is shedding pounds and so can you. The key trick is the partial replacement of carbohydrates with vegetables, ideally green and orange, such that more than half the plate os vegetable based. This means you will fart a lot and still feel full.
I am suspecting that, like me, you are probably Type 2 Diabetic, which is why you must leave some good carbs in the diet (basmati rice, wholemeal bread). Most tubby gents over 50 are T2. Just in case, get checked. Undiagnosed diabetes kills. Did you see my note that The Great Rondini died? It was, eventually, late onset late diagnosed diabetes that took him.
Those who have shied away from you claiming that you have a face that startles horses and will stop traffic need to be shot. You also bear some small responsibility for allowing them to have control over you in this way. Your face is a good face, a pleasant face, and not an ugly face in the least degree.
Body improvement will take one month per kilogram that you are too large. That is the maximum rate it should drop by. I'm pissed off that I dropped from 106 kg to 95 kg only to have a change of meds and to have the weight pile back on with no apparent change of diet. Diabetes is a bugger. So I am back up to 105, and need to get down to 85 or lower.
How do you work on self esteem? That is the part that makes me wonder. And I do have an idea or two up my sleeve. Me? I'm a tubby bloke with a good self image. We need you to get yourself to that place as well as working on changing shape.
Location: England
Registered: March 2015
Messages: 19
I've several times been infatuated with other men and wished I could spend my life with them. Alas, very one of the targets of my passion was determinedly heterosexual.
There's a great deal of wishful thinking in most of the stories we find on the Internet; that's why I like them
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
Quote:
ancient_richard wrote on Tue, 31 March 2015 17:23I've several times been infatuated with other men and wished I could spend my life with them. Alas, very one of the targets of my passion was determinedly heterosexual.
There's a great deal of wishful thinking in most of the stories we find on the Internet; that's why I like them
--
I have been obsessed by one, who seems also determined to be heterosexual! I love your phrasing.
The stories are chosen to produce a rosy glow, but that glow is real when you find it
Location: Surrey, UK
Registered: March 2015
Messages: 11
I do not have Type 2 diabetes or any form of diabetes. In fact as my doctor keeps telling me the engine is fine and in great working order but its the bodywork that needs to be address.
I am on strong medication that does bloat me somewhat for another condition but there is no way around that from what they tell me. I need the medication to keep me ticking so the trade off is the weight gain which is a royal pain in the butt.
I do thank you for your comments and yes, perhaps I have allowed others to inflict injury through negative words. I guess its the old story that if enough people tell you a thing then you begin to believe it.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
"Quote:"
Topher wrote on Thu, 02 April 2015 13:46I do not have Type 2 diabetes or any form of diabetes. In fact as my doctor keeps telling me the engine is fine and in great working order but its the bodywork that needs to be address.
I am on strong medication that does bloat me somewhat for another condition but there is no way around that from what they tell me. I need the medication to keep me ticking so the trade off is the weight gain which is a royal pain in the butt.
I do thank you for your comments and yes, perhaps I have allowed others to inflict injury through negative words. I guess its the old story that if enough people tell you a thing then you begin to believe it.
--
Glad you are not a sufferer of T2D. Meds that bloat are a bugger.
Now, since you have allowed others, probably, to reach your core with negative words, As Yazz says:
And, since it is, what are your thoughts on taking back control of your self esteem? Baby steps.
Location: Surrey, UK
Registered: March 2015
Messages: 11
In every aspect of my life I am a strong person although I do admit that in the past I did let hurtful words and actions affect me. I do not consider myself as having issues with self esteem per say. I am most vocal in a lot of ways have acted swiftly to nip things in the bud before they had a chance to grow to cause me any kind of issue. Its only the dating thing that leaves me some what flustered. To be honest I always thought if I were going to meet some of importance it would be in daily life, or perhaps the random bumping in of someone in the supermarket over the last remaining stuffed chicken. Certainly, standing in gay clubs are pubs are certainly no longer an appealing thought - I base that entirely on the standard music set to deafen rather than background. My hearing is most certainly past being shaken to its core by endless thud, thud of the same note.
I have been looking online at that Meet Up site on which I was hoping to find perhaps a group for writers of fiction or perhaps the gay kind. There are lots of writing groups but none are for gay writers of fiction. I have joined them but as yet none have posted any meetings.
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
Quote:
Topher wrote on Mon, 06 April 2015 15:32In every aspect of my life I am a strong person although I do admit that in the past I did let hurtful words and actions affect me. I do not consider myself as having issues with self esteem per say. I am most vocal in a lot of ways have acted swiftly to nip things in the bud before they had a chance to grow to cause me any kind of issue. Its only the dating thing that leaves me some what flustered. To be honest I always thought if I were going to meet some of importance it would be in daily life, or perhaps the random bumping in of someone in the supermarket over the last remaining stuffed chicken. Certainly, standing in gay clubs are pubs are certainly no longer an appealing thought - I base that entirely on the standard music set to deafen rather than background. My hearing is most certainly past being shaken to its core by endless thud, thud of the same note.
I have been looking online at that Meet Up site on which I was hoping to find perhaps a group for writers of fiction or perhaps the gay kind. There are lots of writing groups but none are for gay writers of fiction. I have joined them but as yet none have posted any meetings.
--
I agree that gay bars are not the place.
I have been harping on about self esteem. This is because you have spent a long time explaining how ugly you are. Most folk with good self esteem don't do that.
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