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I touched on this in a previous thread, and have had a couple of exchanges of mails with Timmy. I'd really value any constructive thoughts or perspectives on the problems that are bugging me (and I'm expecting a pretty mixed reaction) - but please be gentle as I'm fairly new to this forum!
Here's the text of my first mail to Timmy (italics), and his responses interleaved (yes, he's agreed that I can post them).
> Hi Timmy
>
> your reply was really helpful in clarifying a number of issues for me.Thanks so much for your offer of talking in private. I'm following up by e-mail rather than on the forum, as I'm a pretty new member and am not sure quite how this would go down with the other guys, but I'd be happy to put this mail on the forum if you think it might be useful to others (in spite of the probably miniscule risk that the other person involved might be part of, or join, the forum).
You know, if he joins he joins. Does that actually matter?
>
> Very briefly,
> I was in the 4th form at school and W. was in the U6th - around 5 years age difference. We got friendly (much against ethos of single-sex school) via various clubs. Did a lot together out of school - walks, museum trips, that kind of stuff. W. had a fair number of 'little friends' but I somehow was more of a 'special friend'. Friendship continued after W. left school to go to local college. I knew he was interested in sex, and I knew I was gay (even if I did rather hope it was a phase I'd grow out of). We went on holiday together (with his Mum) - same room separate beds, even though I did hope he'd invite me into his for a cuddle, it didn't happen. Back from holiday, there was a spare hour before he took me home, ended up having sex (his idea). My first orgasm, apart from one wet dream (yeah, really - and not for want of trying on my part ...). It felt rather rushed and furtive.
Readingoin it seems he was stuck into "little boys". I think he woudl have outgrown you, you know. he was a user. But he will also have loved you deeply. you do know he loved oyu? It is also clear somehow.
> We continued seeing each other, and having sex, and pretty soon that's all W. wanted to do. No walks, no talks, no just doing things and being friends ... just sex. So I told him that I felt we needed to stop having sex for a bit and do other things things together. Also that I needed to get my head together a bit, deal with my parents divorce, spend a bit of time with friends my own age ... but that I was definitely not calling a permanent stop to having sex & I cared about him.
It is clear you loved him too.
> I don't blame him for sulking - anyone would have. I do blame him for trying to come on hot&heavy several times that afternoon - the last time was virtually attempted rape. I was really pretty scared by this. We had a few phone conversations after that, but I was too scared to meet him on his own, and he didn't want to meet in a more public setting, so that was that. He did end up writing my mum a hysterical letter, claiming that all he'd ever wanted was to be a substitute father to me after my parents divorce - fortunately I recognised the handwriting and intercepted the letter before mum got to see it!
While he loved you, he was not a pleasant fellow, not in his true light at least
> I next saw him five and a half years later. I'd gone back to school (founders' day kind of event) as my younger brother and various friends were ending the U6th and had various bits of work in exhibitions at the school. I saw W. (by then aged around 24/25) disappearing round the far end of the chapel, accompanied by a small and obviously adoring flock of 13-year-olds. It was pretty clear that he hadn't changed his ways.
>
Do oyu ever wonder how he enticed 13/14 year olds at 25? I certainly do
>
> For the next thirty-odd years, it wasn't anything I thought too much about.
>
> Then, a couple of years ago, I was in a meeting with a couple of colleagues, discussing which of our staff we should require to have Criminal Records checks as their work involves regular contact with children and/or vulnerable adults. I'd already volunteered myself for such checks, to set an example to my staff. The subject then got on to 'child abuse', and 'grooming' . I had a sudden insight that in many respects W.'s approach to me (and others) had been classic grooming. Ever since then, I've been struggling to come to grips with this.
when you were 13/14 and he was 18 or so, he was not grooming you. he was infatuated with you. You did nothing to encourage him nor are you in any way responsible for his later behaviour. he will have loved you, and yes, that will have included sex.
>
> I guess the major issues I'm facing are:
> you're right in thinking that at some level its left me with a feeling that sex can be 'dirty' - a feeling I have overcome on occasion, but I've been celibate for nearly twenty years now, which can't be healthy.
I suspect you do rathe rneed to get laid, to put it very crudely. We all need it. It;s fun, and it is emotional contact with another human being.
> the feeling that W. used me just as a convenient 13/14 year old who would say 'yes', and that the relationship was based on exploitation not (at minimum) friendship, or - as I had hoped - some kind of love. To feel fully replaceable by any other kid of the same age makes me feel like a Kleenex. (although successful professionally, at a personal level I have massive self-esteem problems largely arising from this)
All i have as a framne of reference is me. I woudl cheerfully have made love to (note not "fucked") over 50 boys at my school. I can see them name them and remember them. But not as a kleenexe. As living, warm sentient boys who wanted me in return. Only a few did i have some emotional connection with, and they rest woudl have been "no strings" but the experience woudl not have been user or used. I ownder if thathelps at all?
> a feeling of guilt that, although I suspect I was not W.'s 'first', I may have been either second or third, and may have unwittingly helped confirm him in behaviour patterns that are potentially very damaging to the younger party
or first. or 10th. Does it matter? because only he is repsonsible for his actions. We all make those choices and he has made his choice
> a genuine uncertainty as to whether it's appropriate for me to try to find out if W. is still having sex with 13/14-yr-olds in this way, and if so, what action if any I should take. (W.'s leisure interests were such that he is likely to have continued contact with adolescent boys).
I woudl say this is best left alone. I dont; say this lightly. I say it because you need to retain your own sense of wellbeing. Always rememebr that the Scout movement is founded on peole who love boys. Not that many have the deep sorrows that court cases and attanedant publicity cause.
>
> In short, I don't feel bad about having had sex with someone I cared about. I feel bloody awful about feeling I was manipulated into caring about someone, and therefore having sex with them, and suspecting that I'm neither the first nor the last person they've made feel like this.
there is nothing I can say here that will enable you to do the thing you need to. You know the owrds you need to use about it. It is simply that you are not yet ready to use them.
>
>
> I hope you don't mind me going on like this - once I'd started this mail it all just somehow came tumbling out. I'd really welcome any thoughts you might have.
>
Keep talking.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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Appropriate?
By: NW on Fri, 04 February 2005 00:49 |
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Notes about Age of Consent. - Please read prior to any reply
By: timmy on Fri, 04 February 2005 01:14 |
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Re: Notes about Age of Consent. - Please read prior to any r
By: NW on Fri, 04 February 2005 01:29 |
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side note on UK law of that period
By: timmy on Fri, 04 February 2005 07:07 |
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Re: Appropriate?
By: timmy on Fri, 04 February 2005 09:03 |
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Re: Appropriate?
By: timmy on Fri, 04 February 2005 17:58 |
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Re: Appropriate?
By: NW on Fri, 04 February 2005 19:14 |
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Re: Appropriate?
By: timmy on Fri, 04 February 2005 20:22 |
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Re: Appropriate?
By: e on Fri, 04 February 2005 19:15 |
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Re: Appropriate?
By: timmy on Fri, 04 February 2005 20:41 |
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Re: Appropriate?
By: NW on Fri, 04 February 2005 21:45 |
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Re: Appropriate?
By: timmy on Fri, 04 February 2005 22:17 |
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Re: Appropriate?
By: e on Sat, 05 February 2005 18:40 |
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Re: Appropriate?
By: marc on Fri, 04 February 2005 22:56 |
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Re: Appropriate? Progress!
By: NW on Mon, 07 February 2005 21:02 |
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Re: Appropriate? Progress!
By: timmy on Tue, 08 February 2005 15:06 |
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Reminder, please
By: timmy on Sat, 05 February 2005 00:07 |
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