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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > The future of the forum - surely it's time to talk?
The future of the forum - surely it's time to talk?  [message #63440] Tue, 31 August 2010 13:14 Go to previous message
cossie is currently offline  cossie

On fire!
Location: Exiled in North East Engl...
Registered: July 2003
Messages: 1699



It’s more than two years since I stopped posting here, and I did not intend to return. Though I didn’t know it at the time, I was on the verge of a life-threatening medical crisis which has kept me out of circulation for most of the intervening period. I am at last returning to what (for me) approximates to normality, and idle curiosity led me back to a number of sites which I used to frequent under a variety of identities. I first re-visited APOS six or eight weeks ago, and was very sad to see how much it had changed, and even sadder to see the speed at which it is continuing to move away from its roots. I doubt whether it can survive unless it changes direction radically.

So why am I posting now? Well, I’ve been away for a considerable time, and that probably allows me to form a more objective view than might have been the case if I had continued as a regular poster. It seems to me that change is necessary for survival, and I very much hope that APOS survives not just in the short or medium term but for many years to come. It was for years far the best-conducted forum for insecure gays of all sorts and conditions – even, at times, for both sexes. From personal knowledge I know that it has helped a huge number of people, from young guys confused by their emerging orientation to long-time closet residents finding it more and more difficult to deny their true selves. It really did feel like a place of safety, where anyone could talk about their fears and problems – knowing that whatever they had to say would be heard sympathetically and answered constructively. Timmy cannot be thanked enough for creating and maintaining this unique haven.

This is a very long post, but I was never one for brevity – as some of you will no doubt remember! I’ll try to analyse the problems I think everyone here needs to address, and – as ever – I’ll try to explain how I have arrived at my conclusions. Before I start, it might be as well to explain my world view. After a long period of agnosticism, I am now firmly in the atheist camp. I arrived there after years of exploring world religions and creation myths, concluding that as pretty much every human grouping which survived beyond prehistory (and no doubt many which did not) had developed its own interpretation of its origin and place in the cycles of time, it was clearly something which was a basic requirement in the social development of mankind. That being so, I cannot see any reason to choose the creation myth of a small middle-eastern Bronze Age tribe in preference to any other. I have no zeal to campaign against religion per se, it brings comfort to a lot of good people; on the other hand, I very strongly oppose some of its specific doctrines and I object to its preferential status in today’s society. Politically, I’m a fairly left-wing socialist, except where theories lose sight of practical realities – as for example in education and the in obsession with multiculturalism in preference to integration. So that’s where I stand.

It seems to me that the most obvious change here has been a significant move from the expression of individual opinions on the events of the day to the regurgitation of second-hand views by providing links to information posted elsewhere. That diminishes and sterilises this discussions. There are many other gay news sites, most offering some kind of comment facility. Those who are news junkies can visit for themselves; this forum (though occasional links have always been provided) was a place for more thoughtful comment – if you like, the equivalent of a conversation between friends. The two approaches are clearly incompatible. APOS cannot compete as a news site among the better-funded commercial and semi-commercial institutions, nor does it need to. But it can provide a place within which friends can voice their own thoughts and develop their own views.

Concurrently with this change, the increased focus on gay issues has largely squeezed out the ‘ordinary’ topics which were once an important part of the mix. Applying the same analogy with conversation, this was a place where gay friends (and anyone who joined in was automatically treated as a friend) could talk about anything and everything. The gay dimension was always there, but we discussed all manner of other things, too.

I suspect that this recent trend has to some extent been driven by Timmy’s wish to encourage campaigning zeal. With respect, I don’t think that this is the place for it. The results are clear to see – far too much of the current traffic is negative, and negativity by its very nature does not engender any sense of community. Not everyone feels the soapbox urge. That doesn’t mean that they don’t support the continuing moves to outlaw all forms of discrimination. Change comes by winning hearts and minds; by changing the views of those with the power and influence to implement the changes we seek. Anyone who has studied the progress of the gay agenda in the UK must realise that over the years much more has been achieved by dedicated and well-organised backroom campaigners than by in-yer-face protesters in the Peter Tatchell mould. The UK is backward in some respects, but our legal protection is among the best in the world. Yelling (vocally or in print) at your MP or equivalent representative, or interrupting his or her public appearances, is unlikely to garner support, but reasoned correspondence, based on the assumption that he (or she) ‘may not be fully aware of the depth of the problem’, can work well. Not every time, and not with every MP, but it can and does get results. The effect of street protest – in the UK, at any rate – is limited; its one useful function is to keep an issue in the public mind, but Gay Pride events do this just as effectively while attracting little or no negative reaction. But, in truth, the real progress is made by those who pursue the cause moderately but persuasively. Even Gay Pride probably does more for the self-assurance and personal development of those who take part than it does for the advancement of the wider cause – but that is in itself a hugely worthwhile achievement.

So, in summary, I would suggest that active protest and campaigning in this forum has little or no positive effect but is very, very damaging to the sense of community which was once the unique characteristic of APOS.

Moving on to the US fundamentalist right, I despise almost everything about it. I have my own views about the reasons, but I cannot imagine that the separation of Church and State in today’s America bears much relationship to the vision of those who first introduced the principle. US citizens are much preoccupied with freedom, but they enjoy less freedom than they think. How can Church and State be separate when so many vote as their religious leadership decrees? Is the Church truly separate from the State when laws are enacted compelling large swathes of the population to comply with purely religious concepts of morality? True freedom of speech is just as strongly protected in the UK by tradition and custom as it is in the US by the Constitution; overt hate speech is outlawed here, because the freedom of the subject of the hatred is also protected, but there is no censorship of opinion.

APOS is not a US site; it is a UK-based site with a world-wide message. Every reasonable individual with feel sympathy with our gay US brothers who are faced with so much hatred and bigotry, but there is very little that most of us can do to help in any practical way. We know it’s happening; it’s reported here as well, particularly in the so-called ‘quality’ press. But, frankly, the constant stream of invective on the forum has become more than tedious. And, speaking of invective, surely we should make some attempt to hold the moral high ground? I doubt whether any regular visitor to APOS has any sympathy with the hate-induced outpourings of the homophobics, but is anything achieved by responding in kind, day after day? If all we do is compete with them in the severity and unpleasantness of the insults we express, we simply bring ourselves down to their level.

Let’s briefly look at the post about Ken Mehlman. That generated a shedload of sheer hatred. Me, I knew I was gay and maybe a little bit bi) before puberty, and from around 14 to my late 20s my sex life was varied, interesting and exclusively gay. But I was a child of my times, and like so many of my contemporaries I eventually married. I’m fairly sure I did it for the wrong reasons, but it worked out better than I could have ever have hoped for, and watching my kids grow was undoubtedly the highlight of my life. The point is, that although I knew who I was and I came from a non-religious background, I was still subject to contemporary influences. Now think of Mehlman. No doubt he grew up in a strong Republican environment, with all the religious taboos that implies. Like so many in that situation, he was probably brainwashed into repressing his gay orientation. Like so many in that situation, he was probably brainwashed in the Republican tradition. In adult life he became a successful Republican politician. I despise his politics, but I accept that he saw things differently. I can see no compelling evidence to suggest that he was actively homophobic; in fact the accounts I have read suggest the opposite. Homophobia may well be endemic among Republicans, but that doesn’t mean that all Republicans are homophobes. And however much you may hate his party, he is not personally responsible for the death of any American soldier. The Middle Eastern conflicts were supported by other states, and not exclusively by right-wing parties. So he eventually comes out of the closet he has occupied for so long. No doubt he will suffer for doing so – more than many self-proclaimed out-proud gays have suffered. Why all the vitriol? Maybe you feel the need to reserve judgement until his future actions become clearer. Maybe you don’t feel the urge to shake his hand. But only a fool would drive away someone who has such potential to advance the gay cause. There is more joy in Heaven over one sinner that repenteth ....

The language used against this guy has no place in any civilised debate.

So, the three suggestions so far –

• If you have something to say, say it in your own words. Use links sparingly, and never include a link (especially a You Tube link) without saying something about why you’re posting it – even if it’s just because the subject is sexually attractive! Think of the forum as a place for exchanging ideas, not for ramming your own opinions down reluctant throats.

• Don’t be carried away by campaigning zeal.

• Don’t resort to hate speech – it’s unpleasant and unnecessary. Always.


I seriously believe that, taken together, these suggestions could help to rebuild the sense of community which has all but disappeared. They might also help to bring back a younger element. I don’t think that a forum like this can specifically aim to attract young posters; in fact – taking account of the present age profile – that might be seen as a questionable objective. On the other hand, I don’t accept that all young people are exclusively attracted to sites designed for their own age group. Many of those who came here found the site by surfing and were attracted by the friendly atmosphere, which made them feel welcome, and able to express their views and concerns on an equal footing with any other poster. I know this is true because some of them told me so. If this seems a friendly and welcoming place, new generations will continue to find it and use it. Now ask yourself whether the current crop of posts could reasonably be described as attractive to anyone.

OK, I’m nearly finished. What about the moderation of the forum? Well, my own view is that the idea of a ‘mystery moderator’ has little to commend it. If the forum is to regain what it has lost, the moderator needs to be fair but firm and, above all, to be respected. It’s difficult to feel respect for someone hidden by a cloak of anonymity.

There’s another important aspect, too, and one about which I have disagreed with Timmy in the past. We have all – I hope – felt derision for school authorities who insist on punishing both parties to a confrontation equally. Why should the victim be treated in the same way as the bully, when all he did was attempt to defend himself? Such an approach is virtually an endorsement of bullying. It isn’t acceptable in the school context, and it shouldn’t be acceptable here.

It’s been suggested that if a poster makes offensive remarks to another, the recipient should simply ignore what has been said. The argument is that a response will simply exacerbate the problem, whereas ignoring the remarks will eventually encourage the offender to cease offending. That isn’t the way the world works. There’s no evidence to suggest that being ignored improves behaviour, but plenty of evidence to suggest that recipients are hurt by such behaviour and may be discouraged from participating in the forum, or even driven away. By extension, allowing bad behaviour to continue can destroy the forum.

That is not to say that there is anything wrong with disagreements; differences of opinion are the seasoning which makes for enjoyable debate. It’s perfectly possible to disagree in a civilised manner without directing insults towards the other party.

In short, the forum is much more important than any of its individual members, and if it is to regain its past lustre in needs to be firmly protected from further damage.

I could say more, but you’ll be overjoyed to discover that you are fast approaching the end. I hope everyone who has read thus far will think seriously about the situation and will post a response agreeing or disagreeing with all or selected parts of what I’ve tried to say. I’ve included some bits specifically to try to provoke different views. The whole objective of the post is to generate discussion about the welfare of the forum instead of the interminable succession of negative issues which has been characteristic of recent weeks.

I repeat – Timmy established a wonderful resource which helped and was enjoyed by a huge number of people, including me. I think it’s worth fighting for.

And finally – no, I haven’t lost my sense of humour. I just don’t think that what is happening here is at all funny.

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2010 02:34]



For a' that an' a' that,
It's comin' yet for a' that,
That man tae man, the worrld o'er
Shall brithers be, for a' that.
 
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