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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > UK Equal Marriage
UK Equal Marriage  [message #67236] Wed, 12 December 2012 11:19 Go to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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The results of the England & Wales Government consultation on equal marriage are now out. Some 53% of individual responses were in favour of same-sex marriages (with 46% against, and 1% don't know /. don't care / other).

Although the proposals did not envisage allowing religious groups to conduct marriages, the government has decided to go one step further and permit religious groups to "opt in" to being allowed to do so. The exceptions being the Church of England (the established Anglican church in England) and Church of Wales (which is Anglican, but not established). The new proposals try very hard to make it clear that no church or church member will ever be forced to conduct same-sex marriages if their conscience forbids it.

This is a massive step  forward, and (to be honest) not one I'd thought to see in my lifetime.

Needless to say, the "anti's" are conducting a massive campaign to preserve marriage as purely a "one man, one woman" institution, and a number of Members of Parliament seem to be crumbling under the pressure from the religious right. My own MP is pro-civil-equal-marriage, but a bit iffy on religious ones ... so I've written to him this morning to put the case for religious gay marriages. The Society of Friends (Quakers)  - and others, like Unitarians -have been actively pushing to be allowed to conduct same-sex marriages for some years, and I think it's really important to hammer home that some religious groups are very strongly in favour.

Anyone living in the UK might like to consider dropping a note to their MP ( www.writetothem.com is easy!) - it's an issue where small numbers of well-considered individual letters will have a far greater impact than petitions, form letters, or incoherent scrawls in green ink!



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: UK Equal Marriage  [message #67237 is a reply to message #67236] Wed, 12 December 2012 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kitzyma is currently offline  Kitzyma

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If I understand the proposal correctly, they intend to make it voluntary for religions & churches to conduct a religious gay marriage on their premises, EXCEPT for CofE and CofW. The proposed law would make it illegal for a CofE vicar to conduct such a ceremony, even if he/she wishes to do so.

That seems like a typical cock-up by this government, c.f. good old Theresa May having someone arrested 24 hours too early. Surely any legislation which effectively discriminates against a religion (in this case CofE & CofW) will fall foul of Human Rights legislation and would be challenged in the ECHR.
Re: UK Equal Marriage  [message #67238 is a reply to message #67236] Wed, 12 December 2012 23:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I am considering what to do. I am ambivalent about gay religious marriage. I am so sick of being beaten up by relion for being gay that I find I have no taste for the black cloaked bastards, and wonder why any gay human being finds a religion that expresses hate to be one they wish to espouse.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: UK Equal Marriage  [message #67239 is a reply to message #67238] Thu, 13 December 2012 00:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Quote:
timmy wrote on Wed, 12 December 2012 23:43... wonder why any gay human being finds a religion that expresses hate to be one they wish to espouse.

--
Gay or straight, I'd strongly recommend against espousing any religion that preaches hate for anyone!

There's plenty of choice of decent religions that cherish diversity ... Unitarians are christian, and desperately want to be able to solemnise same-sex marriages, Liberal Judaism lives up to its name, and the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers) continue the fight for human rights for all that they've been waging since they helped start the movement for the abolition of slavery.

Personally, I'm probably unlikely to want to get married - whether in a "religious" setting or not. But I passionately believe that there are many people - gay and straight - who do want to get married, who consider it a sacrament, and whose churches agree. Such people, and such churches, surely should have the option of gay and straight people being treated equally?



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: UK Equal Marriage  [message #67240 is a reply to message #67239] Thu, 13 December 2012 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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"NW wrote on Thu, 13 December 2012 00:11"

Quote:
Such people, and such churches, surely should have the option of gay and straight people being treated equally?


--The churches should have no such option. Equality means equality. Allowing them to opt for sexual equality is like allowing them to opt for racial equality. It is not that log ago that the Mormons expressed the firm belief that any non white person was inferior. They were forced to alter the expression of that view, whatever their belief.

If one has a belief in a deity then that belief alone ought to be sufficient without the mumbo jumbo of some sort of blessing invoked by one of the black cloaked bastards.

To hell with the churches who choose to object. Literally to hell with them.

And so I am unsure of my action. I shall probably write to my MP saying that equality means equality. That does not mean I have any particluar interest in the black cloaked bastards concerned.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: UK Equal Marriage  [message #67241 is a reply to message #67236] Thu, 13 December 2012 08:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I have considered and written thus to my MP:

"Quote:"
Equality before one's god and before the law

This is not a long ramble, for which I am sure you will be grateful. Equality is not a thing one can opt in to or opt out of. Racial equality is racial equality. Sexual equality is sexual equality. And those who are homosexual, male and female, are equal to those who are heterosexual, male and female.

Thus it is with a growing sense of unease that I read the reports thet it will be made unlawful for some churches to marry homosexual committed couples, and others will be compelled to "allow" it.

We do not opt to obey the laws compelling equality for men and women. We must not create laws that allow the option to discriminate against homosexual people. The church must be brought to heel. It is a creation of man, actually of men, to seek to explain natural aspects of life, but it denies and denigrates some of those natural aspects of life as sinful. And yet sins are those which do harm. Love, gently expressed, does no harm.

The proposed law is bad law. It reclassifies homosexuals yet again as second class citizens. I urge you to seek to amend it to ensure it is fully inclusive.

[Updated on: Thu, 13 December 2012 08:34]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: UK Equal Marriage  [message #67247 is a reply to message #67241] Tue, 18 December 2012 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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My MP has replied:
Quote:
Thank you for taking the time to email me with regard to same sex marriage.

I agree with you that equality is at the centre of this issue and I do feel that marriage is a lifelong commitment to another person and that it should not matter how a person loves, more that we recognise the validity of their commitment.  I do not believe that the purpose of marriage needs to be linked to childbearing although I realise that there are many people who do and neither do I feel that the term marriage should belong to any religious faith.

I appreciate why you feel uneasy about the proposal to make it illegal for the Churches of England and Wales to conduct same sex marriages.  It is not quite the move that I would have wished for either but at least they will be able to opt in, in the future.  Unfortunately, though I believe passionately in equality, I do not feel there will be any reversing this decision which has been made in order to at least ensure that the proposal is passed. I look to forward to the day when all faiths treat all people equally.

I will be voting for the proposals. I enjoy being married and agree that same opportunity should be open to everyone.


A decent reply, if less than I hoped.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: UK Equal Marriage  [message #67249 is a reply to message #67247] Wed, 19 December 2012 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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As you say, a decent response - and pretty rapid, too.

Current best guesses seem to be that gay marriage, including religious ceremonies for those religious groups wishing to opt in, will go through.

I believe equal marriage sends a powerful signal of equality, as well offering gay couples who choose it a level of recognition when travelling in many places abroad that civil partnership does not currently offer.

The current proposal also recognises that many  people (gay or straight) who have religious beliefs feel that that impels them to push for equal recognition - a message too many people (gay and straight) often overlook.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Marriage and religion  [message #67250 is a reply to message #67249] Wed, 19 December 2012 10:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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The area that I find very hard to understand is why one feels the need for a religious ceremony if one is homosexual. I am not denigrating anyone's faith in a deity. I am simply astounded that, when religion is the major stick that has been used for many centuries to persecute homosexuals, anyone wishes to go near organised religion to seek, nay insist upon, it's performing the ceremony.

I have no objection of any description to homosexual people receiving a true marriage contract in a secular manner. Marriage is not a religious item whatever the religious say. It is the expression of formal commitment between people to each other.

When I married, way back in 1979, in a heterosexual marriage lest anyone doubts what I am talking about, we chose church because that is what one did at the time. Neither of us has a religion, and apart from mandatory church of england baptism, something we did to our son and would not do today, we did hatches, matches and dispatches. Today I attend such ceremonies out of politeness to those who invite me, not out of a religious belief. I enjoy the music and eschew the prayers and sermons.

I would not marry in a church today. I despise the black cloaked bastards. I am interested in their historic buildings and the art in them, especially that stained glass windows always show miserable people standing around their alleged saviour. If it's all so glorious why do they look so sour?

The church of england is a hotbed of vice and oppression. Why would I want to submit to their ceremonies at all?

[Updated on: Wed, 19 December 2012 10:20]




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Today's grass roots tories  [message #67364 is a reply to message #67236] Sun, 03 February 2013 23:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Today we see this headline: Gay marriage: Tory chairmen call for delay on vote. Ha! the article says "More than 20 current and former constituency chairmen have delivered a letter to 10 Downing Street." Former Chairmen are unimportant. They have no place in a discussion anyway. They just want their views heard because they think they are important.

I wrote to my own MP just now:

Quote:
I just want you to know that, as a Grass Roots Conservative, I am in full favour of total equality of human beings. If folk want to marry, then marry they should, even in a ceremony held by members religion that is unpleasant enough to try to discriminate against them.

The idiots who presented their letter "of delay" to the PM today are bigots of the worst kind. The Conservative Party will be better off when they quit.


Can't lose. I suggest all UK folk reading this do the same. If you have no idea who yours is, WriteToThem.com will solve that for you.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Today's grass roots tories  [message #67367 is a reply to message #67364] Mon, 04 February 2013 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Excellent stuff, Timmy.

I'm not a Tory myself, by any stretch of the imagination (though I did vote for them in 1974, after the 3-day week). But I'm lucky enough to have an excellent local MP, in the person of (Tory) Robin Walker. He's been strongly supportive of equal civil marriage all along, and is warming up fast on religious marriage as well: the two letters I exchanged with him last year were very positive, and I know he's replied in a similar positive vein to a gay couple I know locally.

Anyone in the UK would indeed help by writing to their MP. I think it's important to show that that, whatever one's political complexion, this transcends party issues and is a basic matter of human equality.




"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Today's grass roots tories  [message #67372 is a reply to message #67367] Mon, 04 February 2013 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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To be fair I am no longer a grass roots tory. At the last election I voted for least worst, which happened to be my local constituency MP who does a reasonable job. I had become a floating voter and considered LibDem. After the result was counted I was nervous of a coalition, but am now immensely grateful for the steadying hand of the LibDems on the Tory juggernaut, despite many LibDems being appalled at some of the policies that have been pushed through.

My stand on human rights is a simple one. We are all equal. That's it. And I want my elected representative of whatever political persuasion to embrace that.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
So far so good  [message #67383 is a reply to message #67236] Wed, 06 February 2013 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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In the UK we now have a definite result on the latest stage of the law making quest for equal human rights. This has been a huge hurdle, but it is like a fence on a steeplechase course. We now have to have the bill debated in the House of Lords, somewhere packed with old farts and worse, with bishops. Do not expect anything like equal human rights here yet.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: So far so good  [message #67384 is a reply to message #67383] Wed, 06 February 2013 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I am mistaken. It is not in the entire United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It is only in England and Wales. The Northern Irish and the Scots are still hamstrung by centuries of bigotry and religion. Ah wait, those are the same thing!



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: So far so good  [message #67398 is a reply to message #67384] Wed, 06 February 2013 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Camy is currently offline  Camy

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Obviously, I'm glad the vote went the way it did, though as I'm an atheist I can't see the attraction of getting married in church. Yes, the legal protection for same sex couples is vital, but it was already in place. Still, it's a good sign that our little bit of the world is becoming just that little bit fairer.

[Updated on: Wed, 06 February 2013 22:14]




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It's like Mad Max out here: guys doing guys, girls doing girls, girls turning into guys and doing girls that used to do girls and guys!
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Re: So far so good  [message #67400 is a reply to message #67384] Wed, 06 February 2013 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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Scotland is preparing its own Bill, to be debated IIRC next year. It has very wide cross-party support, and is considered to be very unlikely to face significant obstacles.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Today's grass roots tories  [message #67444 is a reply to message #67364] Mon, 11 February 2013 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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My MP replied to me today:

Quote:
Thank you very much for taking the time to email me with regard to your support for same sex marriage.

I am pleased to be able to inform you that I voted in favour of same sex couples having the right to marry.  This is because I believe that our sexuality is a fundamental and intrinsic part of who we are and want this to be recognised throughout society.
 
This was a vote of conscience and my belief is that people must be respected regardless of their sexuality. You cannot be 'a little bit equal' in regard to the treatment of you as a person who is gay and this is why I voted for a right to equal recognition of their relationships. I do not believe that civil partnerships have the same status as marriage and would not want one myself, why therefore should I vote to enforce this as the only option for many of my constituents? I could not look them in the eye had I done so!


Sounds like a well adjusted MP



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Today's grass roots tories  [message #67445 is a reply to message #67444] Tue, 12 February 2013 11:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
NW is currently offline  NW

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A clear, unambiguous and positive reply - excellent stuff.

I have been much heartened by the number of MPs who have taken a very strong positive line on this issue, and impressed by those MPs who stood up in Parliament to relate their own experiences as gay and lesbian people.



"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
Re: Today's grass roots tories  [message #67447 is a reply to message #67445] Tue, 12 February 2013 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I feel humbled by those who have gone before me, and by the results of their never ending drive for equality and genuine inclusivity. I sometimes feel ashamed that I was unwilling, unable, to do this myself when I was 20 or so, but I was too afraid of my own feelings, let alone of what people would say. Today I carry the remnants of that fear and am not as open about myself as I wish, a paradox.

But I campaign in my own small way. That includes ensuring that my elected members of various bodies understand my views.

I'm heartened by my MP's attitude.




Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Rhetoric like this is hardly necessary at the best of times.  [message #67450 is a reply to message #67447] Wed, 13 February 2013 16:04 Go to previous message
The Gay Deceiver is currently offline  The Gay Deceiver

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Messages: 869




Headlined (posted an hour ago) this morning at pinknews.co.uk is featured this article:

Tory MP Henry Smith: MPs who abstained in the same-sex marriage vote are 'chickens'

Why is the wonton bashing of those with views contrary to our own apparently necessary?

The aforementioned op-ed piece is only but one example from recent media; and I'm not talking about responses to those stories by one flavour or another of the Religion Nazis and their mouthpieces either which obviously slander and outright lie in their diatribes against anything LGBTQ. Surely people have a right to their opinion and views on any given topic, and provided that those individuals don't endanger others through their rhetoric why must we trash them?

As a life-time and very vocal supporter of the "EQUAL MEANS EQUAL" mantra, my views on a varied number of LGBTQ issues, including but not the least of them being marriage equality, is widely known; but, I would never debase and diminish another for their view-point; instead I would prefer to educate and enlighten those whose thoughts are contrary to my own. Henry Smith, MP., shames all of us when contributing to headlines like expressed that above.

Warren C. E. Austin
The Gay Deceiver
Toronto, Canada


[Updated on: Wed, 13 February 2013 16:05]

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