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You are here: Home > Forum > A Place of Safety > General Talk > Some observations on the forum, past & present
Some observations on the forum, past & present  [message #69985] Sun, 19 July 2015 23:51 Go to next message
Kitzyma is currently offline  Kitzyma

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For those who don't know, i.e. almost everyone, I'm a bit bipolar. For almost a year I had the longest and lowest 'down' that I've ever experienced. Hence, no posts from me in all that time. As some will have guessed, just a couple of weeks ago I bounced back to a high, and recently I've been making more than my fair share of posts.

My introduction to this site was about 3 years ago, when I arrived as an author, and my initial forays in the forum were mostly related to story feedback. That, I like to think, was only partly due to my self-absorption as an author. Mostly, as a newbie, I felt rather overwhelmed by the huge numbers of posts in the previous 10-12 years and felt a little intimidated by what seemed at the time to be a lot of posters with a shared history on the forum.

Sometimes it was difficult to determine the significance of a post, though it seemed clear to those who, unlike me, knew the background of poster. What might seem to me to be a rather over-the-top reaction or an ascerbic retort was clearly deemed completely understandable by those who 'knew' the poster and could interpret the post in the context of the poster's personality and life experiences.

A couple days ago, prompted by the 'A time for reaffirmation' thread, and my brain in its current overdrive mode, I began to take dips into the vast ocean of previous posts. My initial idea was to go right back to the beginning, around 15 years ago, but trying to do that was totally overwhelming.

So instead (and I hope this doesn't sound too creepy!) I tried an alternative method of picking one or two contributors from the past and picking out semi-random threads from their posting histories. I also picked a couple of my favourite authors (e.g. Grasshopper) and looked at some of the threads they'd contributed to.

These are some thoughts derived from those exploratory paddles in the ocean of posts. I don't pretend to have any answers. Actually, I'm pretty sure that I don't even have the right questions. In any case, my personal views would be too much influenced by the fact that I'm very atypical in so many ways. e.g. I don't like physical closeness, and my aversion to being touched is such that I almost never visit a barber, instead preferring to do my own hair  (badly!). Also, one reason I write stories is because it is an attempt to understand what romantic love is and why people seem to think it's so desirable. So I wouldn't expect my opinions to be in any way representative of the general population.

The forum was obviously much busier in the past and many of the early regulars have gone. I wonder if that is just because people move on in real life and nowadays are not replaced by new people, who instead use the modern 'social media' instead of web forums. Have other potential newbies felt the same degree of trepidation I felt when coming to such a long-established forum with so many posts over the past 15 years or so?

I doubt that many new people would do as I've been doing, a semi-random dipping into old posts, but if they did, maybe they would be as saddened as I was to find bad-tempered argumentative threads that seem to have no logical basis or depend on trivial usages of certain words. Having grown up with parents who were always arguing and sometimes physically fighting, I now shun situations with strong antagonisms and any hint of violence. Yes, I know I'm a timid wimp, but if I'd first come across the forum when such bad-tempered posts were being made, then I would probably have quickly scurried away.

There there used to be gay teens on the forum but now there are few (if any). Has life become so much easier for gay teens that it was 10 years ago so they don't need the support of a forum? Or has new social media etc provided them with alternatives? Or has all the media report of 'online grooming' made modern teens too scared of forums? Is there some clue in what appears to be Grasshoppers last post to the forum in Dec 2009?

Finally, I wonder if 10-15 years ago, the perception of the site to newcomers and to those who saw it mentioned elsewhere, was that it was a place with a forum (where teens could feel safe) that site also had stories. Is the perception now that it is a site for stories that also has a forum for chatting? Is it only a tiny proportion of visitors who look at the forum compared with the number who just read stories? Does the success of the larger Story Shelf bring new people to look at the forum or does it distract people away from the forum?

As I said, just some thoughts and observations from a relative newbie who happens to be a bit of a timid soul.
Re: Some observations on the forum, past & present  [message #69988 is a reply to message #69985] Mon, 20 July 2015 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
solsticeman is currently offline  solsticeman

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I have a great deal of sympathy for much of what you say. I too find the acerbic comments and over the top criticism off-putting and wonder what effect they have on passersby who read them and hurry on to places where people are more polite. I recently awarded myself the right to not read the current pet peeves thread after a particularly rude comment, not even aimed at an author but at his readers. Timmy has asked where the new writers are... hiding under the bed, I suspect. After reading pet peeves it would be a brave boy who reached for a pen. As Kitzyma says (or at least implies) we seem to be a community whose history seems to have been marked by periods of gratuitous unpleasantness. There seems to be something about story structure, grammar and punctuation that brings out the worst in us. My comments here may even be typical.
Re: Some observations on the forum, past & present  [message #69989 is a reply to message #69988] Mon, 20 July 2015 10:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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I have failed to find that comment in the peeves thread. I hope I was not the person who issued it! Failing to find it could be a symptom of that



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Some observations on the forum, past & present  [message #69992 is a reply to message #69985] Mon, 20 July 2015 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
larkin is currently offline  larkin

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I've been writing for a bit more than a decade.  Part of my darksided approach is exactly how I cope with depression.  When finally I spill it all out, I brighten up the final resolution so as not to depress everyone else in the world.  That seems to work out for me.
 
I was posting on many Manga Yaoi sites that were hosting youthful writers.  They were much worse than I and I would always encourage them even in the crudest attempts.  However, some were brilliant and were an influence on me.  
 
Yaoi is Japanese comics that deal specifically with gay sex and I think I learned something.  The members preferred the cartoon depictions over photographic porno which they claimed were unsettling. The Yaoi comics were sexually explicit but also devoted a lot of time on romance and they did it with a certain poetry.  Manga gay comics are about ideas and concepts, and photo-porn is about if the model is appealing or not.  One by one all those Japanese sites disappeared.  They were probably kicked off because ideas are dangerous.
 
Where did they go? Kit, they are not scared of forums... Technology moved on and so did they. Can you imagine if you had a smart phone when you were in middle school? Consider the hook-up possibilities and opportunities..
 
Well they do and they have incorporated the possibilities through things like texting and skype and it has solidly become their culture.  They are writing their stories in real time.  There is nothing new about an emerging generation putting up a wall to exclude the parental generation.   We are losing touch with them because they are becoming immersed into the Matrix.  unfortunately, reading is becoming even less relevant than it was even 10 years ago.
 
I don't have answers other than out-reach.
 
Finally, bad punctuation, misspelling and atrocious grammar are common faults particularly with me.  Young writers are worse.  But these are mechanical problems that can be solved easily enough or even by offering a tidy-up service for submissions from new writers before they post.  
 
Recognizing a diamond in the rough is a noble calling because you can change a life. The most important thing is the story above all else and after that, being able to see and recognize a unique writing style that may just need mentoring.
 
This might be a good place to start...
 
 

[Updated on: Mon, 20 July 2015 14:41]

Re: Some observations on the forum, past & present  [message #69996 is a reply to message #69992] Tue, 21 July 2015 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kitzyma is currently offline  Kitzyma

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Quote:
larkin wrote on Mon, 20 July 2015 14:40

Finally, bad punctuation, misspelling and atrocious grammar are common faults particularly with me.  Young writers are worse.  But these are mechanical problems that can be solved easily enough or even by offering a tidy-up service for submissions from new writers before they post.  
 
Recognizing a diamond in the rough is a noble calling because you can change a life. The most important thing is the story above all else and after that, being able to see and recognize a unique writing style that may just need mentoring.
 
This might be a good place to start...
 

--

As clarification, when I wrote "argumentative threads that seem to have no logical basis or depend on trivial usages of certain words.", I wasn't referring to usage of words used in stories but words used in discussion posts. Sometimes people, perhaps unconsciously, interpreted words to suit their own arguments. Because I don't want to risk triggering any similar arguments, I won't go into specific examples I found in threads that closed years ago.

Of course, what makes a 'good' story is very subjective. For me, it means that it grabs my attention quickly and makes me care enough about the characters and situation that I want to know what happens next. It's even better if a story also gives me a new perspective on a type of person or situation. In order for a good story to be spoiled for me, the technical aspects would have to be so bad that they they distract me from the story and make it difficult to follow and understand. Although it's possible that a good story could be made even better by improvements in spelling, punctuation, etc, I doubt that a bad story would become a good story just by improving it's technical aspects. 

For a story to grab me and make me care, it's not just necessary to have an interesting plot and sympathetic characters but it requires a writing style that I find 'attractive'.  Again, that's mostly a matter of personal taste. What one person sees as refreshing and original, another might see as so quirky and weird that it's irritating. What one person finds as endearingly cute, another might find to be sickeningly 'cutesie'. Every good author has a distinctive 'voice' and that voice may not be liked by everyone.

As regards 'mentoring', while in principle I'm all for helping young writers, I'm not sure what exactly is meant by 'mentoring'. I don't think that any amount of mentoring will help a writer find his (or her) 'voice'. Although 'Creative Writing' classes might teach new techniques to writers who already have talent, and while they may give untalented writers an insight into how to appreciate techniques used by talented writers, I don't believe that the classes could teach an untalented writer how to be talented. No matter how many drawing classes I might attend, it will never turn me into a talented visual artist.

So, with the 'mentoring' suggested, does that mean just helping them with technical aspects such as spelling, punctuation, etc? Or does it mean advice on story structure? Would there not be a danger that the mentor volunteers because he thinks highly of his own writing and might try to 'convert' the new young writer toward what he sees as his 'superior' style?

Is mentoring just an extreme form of editing, or should it be an encouraging of the new writer to develop his own style and voice'? If it's the latter (as I think it should be) it would require that the mentor already sees, enjoys, and appreciates the new writers voice.

Finally, (as everyone breathes a sigh of relief at seeing that word!) is such mentoring the sort of thing that people want the site to have, and if so, would there be enough potential mentors and those wanting mentoring?

Kit
Re: Some observations on the forum, past & present  [message #69997 is a reply to message #69996] Tue, 21 July 2015 09:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
larkin is currently offline  larkin

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General editing is a black and white thing.  There is a proper way to do things.  This is why I refer to editing as a mechanical function.

I had a friend who would edit my work. He would find the dozens of my errors and scrupulously correct every one for which I was most appreciative.  However when I asked him about how he felt about the characters or the story or if I struck a right or wrong note, he could make no comment. It was as if all the poetry of creative writing just went over his head.
His one request was maybe I could write something about feet and gym socks....
 
Mentoring is a form of adoption.  If someone has no apparent aptitude for writing, why would you mentor them? 
Mentoring is when age and wisdom sees possibilities in unskilled youth.  You read their writing and guide them in learning how to articulate their voice and their message. 
A mentor is a conduit.
Re: Some observations on the forum, past & present  [message #69998 is a reply to message #69997] Tue, 21 July 2015 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kitzyma is currently offline  Kitzyma

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"Quote:"
larkin wrote on Tue, 21 July 2015 09:42General editing is a black and white thing.  There is a proper way to do things.  This is why I refer to editing as a mechanical function.

<snip>
 
Mentoring is a form of adoption.  If someone has no apparent aptitude for writing, why would you mentor them? 
Mentoring is when age and wisdom sees possibilities in unskilled youth.  You read their writing and guide them in learning how to articulate their voice and their message. 
A mentor is a conduit.

--

I've had excellent 'mechanical' editors, to whom I've been very grateful, especially as I've never been able to master comma usage. Being such a mentor as described above is, I believe,  treading a very fine line. It's okay for an editor to say that something needs clarification or that a character or plot line is too unrealistic. However, an editor or mentor trying to persuade an author to use techniques they don't like, just because they feel it would improve the 'literary' quality is something that I think is wrong.

One editor trued to persuade me to use more flashback or stream-of-consciousness passages, but such things are alien to my style and I don't even enjoy reading such stories. He said how could I know they weren't for me if I didn't try them. He got me to read books (e.g. Dream Boy) that he thought were wonderful and I thought was pretentious rubbish. Needless to say, that editor and I quickly parted ways.

Another editor I had to part with suggested different plot lines and endings. Now, I don't mind if an editor tells me they think I should change the plot line and alter the ending because of flaws which they specify. I'll even try a few rewrites until I manage to communicate what I wanted. However, I do not want an editor impinging on my creative impulses by suggesting specific alternative plots and endings.

A mentor must also tread a very fine line between giving guidance on how better to articulate a voice and suggesting things that would alter the voice. There is always a danger that the mentor might want to mould that voice into one that he thinks is better and (perhaps) more like his own. There is also the danger that the mentor sees his own age and wisdom as superior to the freshness and originality of the unskilled youth. In fact, maybe the opposite is true - maybe the fresh and new viewpoint on things gives an original way of looking at them. Maybe the older and 'wiser' writer has got into a sort of rut and is no longer capable of seeing things from new perspectives.

This is just my opinion, but the best way I know for a writer to improve his skills is to keep writing until he finds what works best and until the process feels natural for him. The best thing that a mentor can do is give encouragement for the writer to keep on writing.

As I said, I'm not against the idea of mentoring, but I do think there are many potential dangers if the mentoring goes beyond just giving encouragement.

Kit

[Updated on: Tue, 21 July 2015 10:50]

Re: Some observations on the forum, past & present  [message #70001 is a reply to message #69997] Tue, 21 July 2015 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
timmy

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Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13739



Quote:
larkin wrote on Tue, 21 July 2015 10:42General editing is a black and white thing.  There is a proper way to do things.  This is why I refer to editing as a mechanical function.

I had a friend who would edit my work. He would find the dozens of my errors and scrupulously correct every one for which I was most appreciative.  However when I asked him about how he felt about the characters or the story or if I struck a right or wrong note, he could make no comment. It was as if all the poetry of creative writing just went over his head.
His one request was maybe I could write something about feet and gym socks....
 
Mentoring is a form of adoption.  If someone has no apparent aptitude for writing, why would you mentor them? 
Mentoring is when age and wisdom sees possibilities in unskilled youth.  You read their writing and guide them in learning how to articulate their voice and their message. 
A mentor is a conduit.

--
I try very hard neither to mentor nor to edit because each spoils my enjoyment of the story. Editing is reading character by character, which is like reading musical notes one by one. I want to hear the clarinet solo sing and soar, not simply know what the notes are.



Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
Re: Some observations on the forum, past & present  [message #70002 is a reply to message #69996] Tue, 21 July 2015 19:29 Go to previous message
ChrisR is currently offline  ChrisR

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For several years, I participated in a writers' group that met twice a month at a local coffee shop, anywhere from 2 to 10 people. Each attendee could bring up to 10 pages of a work in progress to be passed out and then read aloud by one of the members and then critiqued. It was a combination of editing, mentoring, and, at times, helping plug gaping holes! The author had to remain silent during the critique - if questions arose, they had to be answered from what was read. (If things weren't understood by us, they wouldn't be understood by the readers, as we all learned the embarrassing way.)

Of course some people would have their pencils out to do basic editing (always useful) and we each had our pet peeves (its/it's, they're/their/there, etc.). I've discovered, however, that despite the thoroughness of the review, when you get the published product back just flip to a random page, stick your finger anywhere on the page, and there's your typo. Never fails.

More important, we discussed the story itself. Sensibility, continuity, reality check, etc., were far more valuable to the writer. When we'd finally take the writer off silence to respond to questions, it could be amusing. "Who's Bob you ask? For heaven's sake, I introduced him on the previous page!" "Oh. You mean Fred?" Oops.

Bottom line, the story is the author's to tell. Period. (That's full stop for the Limeys in our crowd.) Good editing can help with technicalities, and in many cases can help the writer discover his voice. If you read a story you like, but are off-put by a plethora of minute things, by all means let the author know - kindly. If the author ignores you, then he's likely not writing for you.
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