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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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At one point, perhaps still today, the Nifty Archive presented, may still present, race that is not white as a fetish in its tales. "Inter-racial" was, is, the category.
We know, because we are human beings first and foremost, with homosexuality or bisexuality very far down on the list of our personal attributes, that sexualities are universal. It may be that we are attracted broadly to those who look like we do. That makes a Chino-ethnic type less likely to be attracted to an Afro-ethnic type, if correct. I may have invented these terms. I intend them to be neutral, not an expression of some form of bias for or against.
Stories online reflect, generally, this 'white races are the homosexual/bisexual races' bias, something I have long found abhorrent. And yet I find races not my own, with notable exceptions, to be unattractive to me, a personal thing I have known without analysing it for some time. Thus I ought not to be surprised that my site attracts those like me, the white, and privileged because we are white, gay male.
While I am not surprised I am perturbed. Yes, the site is written in English, but English is widespread, so where are the stories about African teenage romance, about Malay, about Chinese, about Japanese, about Indian, about Maori, about other indigenous and displaced races in possessed nations? And those are but a few examples of absences.
I know one author, elsewhere, who is a single, gay, black man. He proves that inter-racial attraction exists. He adores blue eyed blond white heroes. He could, of course, write about back heroes, but he is not attracted to them. And yet he fears that the white heroes in his head will not be attracted to him in the body he inhabits.
"Ok, then, timmy, write a story about a couple of Chinese lads!"
If I tried it would not ring true. I write about what I adore.
Where, then, are the authors who will submit a romance in a non white environment? What about the proud history of homosexuality in the Persia of Alexander the Great? And yet the great Mary Renault also submerged that into whiteness. Bagoas may have not been white, but he was whitened in the stories.
All I want from a story is that it creates a picture in my mind that I wish to see. That picture is about the love, the romance. I can count on the fingers of one hand the tales sent to me that contain a non white character. Where they have met the standards they have been published. Find them and list them in a reply here, linking to them [use the icon in the edit window to associate the url with the name of the tale], and show those to us. But where are the others?
[Updated on: Sun, 21 January 2018 23:01]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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I agree, such stories are rare - far rarer, I think, than in real life. Or perhaps that's just me, having lived in Tottenham (London) for over 25 years, where mixed ethnicity couples (straight and gay) are, if not the norm, at least pretty much totally unremarkable.
The first story I remember reading with an inter-racial gay couple, and in my view still the best, was "Billy and Danny" by the wonderful Mickey S. It runs from college days to parenthood (and, with the epilogue, old age) in seventy-plus chapters over two books, starting in the 1960s. Nifty has it here.
I think I've mentioned the "Bryce" books by Pertinax Carrus here before. There's a lot of Roman Catholic proselytizing, as a college student tries to reconcile his religion with his sexuality: interesting if you really want to understand that kind of thing (it was for me), but a turn-off on re-reading. I also find the portrayal of Damon (Bryce's black boyfriend from the Projects) slightly patronising and stereotyped, but that may just reflect a British view of the American setup. Available on AwesomeDude
Not explicitly gay, there's a rather wonderful story in ten chapters by Arthur (who has a story on here), between an English lad and an Arab princeling. It's on Nifty here.
I'm sure there aare more, but these are the ones that immediately spring to mind.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. ... Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night devoid of stars." Martin Luther King
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It so happens that I grew up not very far from NW just down the road in HarinGay, which is pretty much multi-cultural. Anyway a story I can recommend, although I haven't quite found the time, as yet, to finish it, is The Cornfield Fraternity by Adam https://castleroland.net/story-synop/?id=3602 It paints a vivid picture of sub-Saharan Africa and tells the story of a group of boys joining forces to solve a terrible crime. The author, Adam, who grew up in East Africa knows only too well the life he describes there. I guarantee you have not read a book like this one, you will come away knowing more about Africa and how life really is there than you could ever imagine.
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Although most of my heroes have been white so far, I've written non-white heroes before. My next story posting here, in fact, has a Japanese protagonist. I don't think it's impossible to be true to other cultural identities, I just think it takes more research to do so properly. Do I feel I did that? Honestly, I have no idea. I probably fell short, but the only way to get better at it is to practice, just like everything else. It's not like I haven't been corrected by readers before. Hell, it has happened as a result of all manner of factors, from getting something wrong about scouting to getting something wrong about Mormonism(which is particularly funny for me since I grew up in that culture). The thing about trying to understand another culture is that usually that culture is happy to correct you, and if you're being respectful they'll usually be respectful, too.
I don't think I'm wording any of this very well (which isn't a great showcase of my writing ability, but I believe this is important). If this feels antagonistic, it wasn't intended that way.
But really, if you feel you can get connected to a story about LGBT characters who aren't either who you are or who you're attracted to, write that story. I'm blessed with a multi-cultural attraction, and I have fallen for people of many different ethnicities. Maybe that's why it doesn't scare me to stretch a little. I hope to be able to stretch myself even further (The protagonist in the novel I'm currently working on is Iranian, and the rest of the cast is predominantly Japanese as it takes place largely in Tokyo). I have a dozen ideas involving multi-cultural/non-white environments, and hopefully I'll eventually get around to writing them all.
I personally believe the writing world at large will eventually get there, too. The world becomes a little more multi-cultural every day. This comes with plenty of challenges, but I imagine rainbow-colored literary environments will become the norm sooner rather than later.
"Be or be not, there is no why." - Cynus
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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"NW wrote on Sun, 21 January 2018 12:33"
Not explicitly gay, there's a rather wonderful story in ten chapters by Arthur (who has a story on here), between an English lad and an Arab princeling. It's on Nifty here.
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We do have Eventide here. I must re-enjoy it now you have mentioned it.
But aren't they rare?
Of course we have some very unusual pairings in fantasy worlds as well... Minky is an example! So are London Lampy's unusual characters.
[Updated on: Sun, 21 January 2018 23:43]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Mark
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Likes it here |
Location: Earth
Registered: April 2013
Messages: 279
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Yes, at the time of this writing, Nifty still does have an "Interracial" category, in the "Gay," "Bisexual," and "Lesbian" sections (though, interestingly enough, not in the "Transgendered" section).
I have dabbled a little bit with "mixed" pairings over on Nifty (where one individual is Caucasian, the other Native American). Also, with "An Apprentice's Adventures" I had the intent of having in a similar pairing, with (and hopefully not giving away too much to anyone who hasn't read it yet and who might like to) the concept that the titular character would be, ethnically, comparable to the Caucasian ethnicity in our world, with the Tehari ethnic group being comparable to the Native Americans (although I do sometimes wonder how well I projected that in the final story).
It does have some basis in my own desires, since I (as a Caucasian) do find myself attracted to both Caucasians and Native Americans. I don't write too much about gay individuals outside of my own ethnicity because I do worry about getting their culture right (since I don't know enough about any of the various Native American groups to feel I could accurately portray their culture), and if I ever get into any depth I don't want to be accused of being culturally insensitive (I only did it in "An Apprentice's Adventures" because in that case, it's a world that I've created, so I felt that I could get away with it there, since any ethnic group/nationality/etc. within that setting is officially of my own creation).
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Perhaps growing up in multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, London, determined that I never really consider someone's skin colour or ethnic origins, only enjoy discovering some cultural differences that may go with the person. My last novel Refugee was about boys from Syria, it never crossed my mind that they were a different ethnic origin ( are they?). Sure different culture, but I love that. This thread reads a bit weird to me, I don't see any issues around ethnic origin, mixed races, black and white and yellow. It's normal you wouldn't have too many Chinese stories, just like you don't have too many Russian stories. Most writers are Western European (British) or American!
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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"William King wrote on Mon, 22 January 2018 09:29"Perhaps growing up in multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, London, determined that I never really consider someone's skin colour or ethnic origins, only enjoy discovering some cultural differences that may go with the person. My last novel Refugee was about boys from Syria, it never crossed my mind that they were a different ethnic origin ( are they?). Sure different culture, but I love that. This thread reads a bit weird to me, I don't see any issues around ethnic origin, mixed races, black and white and yellow. It's normal you wouldn't have too many Chinese stories, just like you don't have too many Russian stories. Most writers are Western European (British) or American!
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With a name like William King it is likely, though not certian, that you are white. It's great that you can write well about other ethnicities.
Good as that is, I am not putting in a plea for all white authors suddenly to write about relationships between Myanmar folk in relationships with each other. What I wonder is where those authors are, asusming they write in English
[Updated on: Mon, 22 January 2018 20:54]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Interestingly enough, I have a story sitting in my writing queue which has to do with the Rohingya refugees in Myanmar... Maybe I'll get around to it one day?
As to your question about where those authors are? Many of them probably aren't writing in English, just as you said. There's already an established culture for homosexual literature in Japan, for instance (though the particulars of that are another matter entirely, as they're predominantly written for straight women, not gay men), and Korea has it's own version of that as well. I do know of a few Hispanic authors who write LGBT fiction in Spanish as well. As for why those who are living in English-speaking society, who knows? That's the larger question, I suppose.
"Be or be not, there is no why." - Cynus
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Cynus wrote: "As to your question about where those authors are? Many of them probably aren't writing in English, just as you said."
And there is your answer, example below, there is loads of online gay fiction in other countries even perhaps where you may not think there would be.
同志文学 Tongzhi Wenxue.
A genre of contemporary Chinese homosexual (tongzhi) fiction, as it has emerged on the internet in Mainland China. Although Comrade Literature first emerged in Hong Kong and Taiwan in the 1980s, it was only after the mid-1990s with the advent of the internet that these gay-themed fiction were disseminated online in Mainland China. There are now hundreds and thousands of stories designated as "Comrade Novels" (同志小说 tongzhi xiaoshuo) archived on various Chinese websites.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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"William King wrote on Tue, 23 January 2018 07:44"Cynus wrote: "As to your question about where those authors are? Many of them probably aren't writing in English, just as you said."
And there is your answer, example below, there is loads of online gay fiction in other countries even perhaps where you may not think there would be.
同志文学 Tongzhi Wenxue.
A genre of contemporary Chinese homosexual (tongzhi) fiction, as it has emerged on the internet in Mainland China. Although Comrade Literature first emerged in Hong Kong and Taiwan in the 1980s, it was only after the mid-1990s with the advent of the internet that these gay-themed fiction were disseminated online in Mainland China. There are now hundreds and thousands of stories designated as "Comrade Novels" (同志小说 tongzhi xiaoshuo) archived on various Chinese websites.
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Well, there is an answer.
English is a pervasive language. Obviousy there is a huge population which does not seak English, yet there is a vast multi-ethnic, multi-cultural spread of folk for whom English is either a primary or an excellent secondary tongue. We have a couple of secondary tongue writers on the site, by the way.
So where are the English speaking authors from different ethnicities?
I know of one, not here, who is a black man who writes about blond haired blue eyed romances. Unless I've missed one, every one of his characters is white.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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American_Alex
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Toe is in the water |
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98
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"Quote:"timmy wrote on Mon, 22 January 2018 15:53
"Quote:"
With a name like William King it is likely, though not certian, that you are white.
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I know a middle-aged black man who's name is Duncan Mc (something)...........
[Updated on: Thu, 25 January 2018 00:48]
"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
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Mark
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Likes it here |
Location: Earth
Registered: April 2013
Messages: 279
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"American_Alex wrote on Wed, 24 January 2018 17:47"
"Quote:"timmy wrote on Mon, 22 January 2018 15:53
"Quote:"
With a name like William King it is likely, though not certian, that you are white.
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I know a middle-aged black man who's name is Duncan Mc (something)...........
--
I've heard of some African-Americans whose surname starts with "Griff," which, from my understanding, is Welsh in origin. I've heard that a lot of African-Americans with European surnames can sometimes trace said names back to some of their ancestors who used to be slaves and who gained their freedom at the end of the U.S. Civil War (1861-65), and then took on the surnames of Caucasian individuals who'd been good to them in some way (I don't know how historically accurate that is, though).
Timmy does bring up a very interesting point, though. The LGBT community has members of every ethnic group out there, and given just how many different ethnicities there are just in the U.S. alone for whom English is at least their primary (if not only) language, it's interesting how many LGBT stories are encountered that involve pairings where either both individuals are Caucasian or one of the individual is Caucasian. There just don't seem to be that many stories involving pairings where both individuals are of an ethnicity other than Caucasian, though such pairings certainly must occur in real life with some level of frequency.
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I think if there is not lots of ethnic romance stories is just because the authors are mostly whites, they write about they direct environment , as for the English speaking authors from other ethnicities it's hard to answer , is hard to write a good story in the native language of the author , just imagine do it in English , which is a beautiful language but is complicated too, spelling and grammar and try to put their thoughts in the right context to make something at least readable is hard , not impossible but hard .
"Miguel sabía desde hace tiempo que estaba enamorado de su mejor amigo Juan , ellos eran amigos desde que tenían 6 años y hoy a los 13 simplemente no podia contener esos pensamientos , esos sentimientos"
Translation "Miguel knew he was in love with his best friend Juan, they were Friends since they were 6 and now at 13 he can't stop those thoughts,those feelings"
I am atraccted to names like chris and Kevin for example , you guys who are caucasian feels atraccted to names like Miguel and Juan? Those names catch your attention ?
[Updated on: Thu, 25 January 2018 06:26]
Be strong , so that nobody can defeat you ,
Be noble , so that nobody can humiliate you,
Be yourself , so that nobody can forgets you.
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"Joe.mx wrote on Thu, 25 January 2018 07:11"
I am attracted to names like Chris and Kevin for example , you guys who are Caucasian feel attracted to names like Miguel and Juan? Those names catch your attention ?
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That's an interesting observation, I do find names from different ethnic origins attractive, perhaps because they are different and less ordinary?
There are stories with ethnic relationships, I'm reading one, the Saga of the Elizabethton Tarheels by Sequoyah features two young protagonists, Marc a well off white boy and Justin a native American boy.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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"Joe.mx wrote on Thu, 25 January 2018 06:11"I think if there is not lots of ethnic romance stories is just because the authors are mostly whites, they write about they direct environment , as for the English speaking authors from other ethnicities it's hard to answer , is hard to write a good story in the native language of the author , just imagine do it in English , which is a beautiful language but is complicated too, spelling and grammar and try to put their thoughts in the right context to make something at least readable is hard , not impossible but hard .
"Miguel sabía desde hace tiempo que estaba enamorado de su mejor amigo Juan , ellos eran amigos desde que tenían 6 años y hoy a los 13 simplemente no podia contener esos pensamientos , esos sentimientos"
Translation "Miguel knew he was in love with his best friend Juan, they were Friends since they were 6 and now at 13 he can't stop those thoughts,those feelings"
I am atraccted to names like chris and Kevin for example , you guys who are caucasian feels atraccted to names like Miguel and Juan? Those names catch your attention ?
--
The British, in our rather unleasant conquest of the 'known world' considered other races either to be backward and savages, or to be exotic. I dislike either concept. Humans are humans.
I was, until he vanished, very good friends with an Enrique, a gentleman from Puerto Rico, but I never considered his name either to be attractive nor unattractive. I most assuredly did not consider it to be exotic, nor him to be in any way a savage, nor backward!
I am in awe of those who can write in a language that is not their native tongue. The spellings and other aspects may be sometimes eccentric, but that is immaterial.
But I return to those people who are native speakers of English, even a localised form of English, who are not what we might term the white ethnotypes. They must, surely, be attracted to other human beings? That is obviously an absurd rhetorical question; of course they are. And many are homosexual. Of those, many appreciate the romantic love between teenage males. And, of those, some must be decent at writing stories.
Mixed race stories seem tinged with the fetish of "Wow, one is white, one is black, how daring, how naughty!" They have to be very well written to step away from that. We have two or three of those o the site. Their emphasis is more on the "how ridiculous that this is doubly forbidden" and it is ridiculous. The tales do that sentiment justice. But that is not quite what I am driving towards.
Where are the gentlemen from India who write in English? That is just an example. Don't just go and find me a load of authors from India!
[Updated on: Thu, 25 January 2018 22:50]
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Mark
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Likes it here |
Location: Earth
Registered: April 2013
Messages: 279
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"Joe.mx wrote on Wed, 24 January 2018 23:11"I think if there is not lots of ethnic romance stories is just because the authors are mostly whites, they write about they direct environment , as for the English speaking authors from other ethnicities it's hard to answer , is hard to write a good story in the native language of the author , just imagine do it in English , which is a beautiful language but is complicated too, spelling and grammar and try to put their thoughts in the right context to make something at least readable is hard , not impossible but hard .
--
While there are a lot of English-speaking Caucasians throughout the world who are a part of the LGBT community, there are also a lot of non-Caucasians also in the LGBT community for whom English is either their first/only language or is a language, while not their first, is something they are still fluent in (or are at least at a level that is referred to as conversational proficiency - that means that if you dropped them in a crowd of native speakers, they'd be able to hold a conversation with anyone there and be reasonably understood). These are people who trace their ancestry to ethnic groups from continents other than Europe.
What Timmy and I are wondering is where these non-Caucasian English-speaking (and writing) LGBT individuals are. Certainly there must be some who can write in English and write well and who like to write the type of stories that appear on sites like this one. So why don't we see more of such stories involving main characters that aren't Caucasian? (Yes, not all non-Caucasians know English, but then, not all Caucasians know English either.)
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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As an aside, Mark, I avoid the term Caucasian because it does not have universal validity, as this WIkipedia article on Caucasian race shows. It is interesting that the caucasoid phenotype includes ethnicities that you may not expect with the US usage of the term.
I am looking firmly at the lack of non white authors. I know you are too. I just thought the aside might amuse you.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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What Timmy and I are wondering is where these non-Caucasian English-speaking (and writing) LGBT individuals are. Certainly there must be some who can write in English and write well and who like to write the type of stories that appear on sites like this one. So why don't we see more of such stories involving main characters that aren't Caucasian? (Yes, not all non-Caucasians know English, but then, not all Caucasians know English either.)[/quote]
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I think i got the main point of this topic , well i did a little research of stories in spanish to maybe find something really good so that can fit in this site , i thought that if i found something interesting then i will email to the author asking for his authorization to link his work here( thought you can use Google translator) , well i'm new to gay romance in spanish (weird huh?) I am always looking forward for stories in English so i can improve my own, well the little research i did and i have to tell you that there are really good ones(reading the prologue)but weird thing is that they are inspired in "caucasian" people and environments ,i'm surprised.
[Updated on: Fri, 26 January 2018 07:15]
Be strong , so that nobody can defeat you ,
Be noble , so that nobody can humiliate you,
Be yourself , so that nobody can forgets you.
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timmy
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Has no life at all |
Location: UK, in Devon
Registered: February 2003
Messages: 13771
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"Joe.mx wrote on Fri, 26 January 2018 07:13"I think i got the main point of this topic , well i did a little research of stories in spanish to maybe find something really good so that can fit in this site , i thought that if i found something interesting then i will email to the author asking for his authorization to link his work here( thought you can use Google translator) , well i'm new to gay romance in spanish (weird huh?) I am always looking forward for stories in English so i can improve my own, well the little research i did and i have to tell you that there are really good ones(reading the prologue)but weird thing is that they are inspired in "caucasian" people and environments ,i'm surprised.
--
Google translate has improved a great deal. I know people use it in order to read the stories here in their own native tongue. I'm sure linking and disucssing another autjor's work here is absolutely fine. What I do not ewant to do, however, is to publish machine translated tales simply for the sake of creating anpother racial perspective.
What I want to find are authors who write in acceptable English, in our niche, about all races, writing about human beings, some of whom are black, brown, yellow, red, pink, beige, perhaps purple, and writing about their heroes not as curiosities but as ordinary people. The stories must also be good quality tales with real plots. The people must feel real.
Author of Queer Me! Halfway Between Flying and Crying - the true story of life for a gay boy in the Swinging Sixties in a British all male Public School
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Mark
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Likes it here |
Location: Earth
Registered: April 2013
Messages: 279
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Quote:timmy wrote on Thu, 25 January 2018 16:09As an aside, Mark, I avoid the term Caucasian because it does not have universal validity, as this WIkipedia article on Caucasian race shows. It is interesting that the caucasoid phenotype includes ethnicities that you may not expect with the US usage of the term.
I am looking firmly at the lack of non white authors. I know you are too. I just thought the aside might amuse you.
--
I use the term myself, as so many do (especially, I suppose, in the U.S.) to refer to those who have European ancestry - what many refer to as "white" people. Yes, it hasn't (and still doesn't refer to just that specifically, depending on who you ask. The U.S. Census Bureau (responsible for taking the official U.S. census every 10 years, as mandated by Article I Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution), for example, lists on their website the definitions of the different ethnic groups they ask about in the official U.S. census, and lists "white" as "a person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa."
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American_Alex
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Toe is in the water |
Location: New York, upstate
Registered: October 2017
Messages: 98
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"Mark wrote on Wed, 24 January 2018 23:39"
"American_Alex wrote on Wed, 24 January 2018 17:47"
"Quote:"timmy wrote on Mon, 22 January 2018 15:53
"Quote:"
With a name like William King it is likely, though not certian, that you are white.
--
I know a middle-aged black man who's name is Duncan Mc (something)...........
--
I've heard of some African-Americans whose surname starts with "Griff," which, from my understanding, is Welsh in origin. I've heard that a lot of African-Americans with European surnames can sometimes trace said names back to some of their ancestors who used to be slaves and who gained their freedom at the end of the U.S. Civil War (1861-65), and then took on the surnames of Caucasian individuals who'd been good to them in some way (I don't know how historically accurate that is, though).
Timmy does bring up a very interesting point, though. The LGBT community has members of every ethnic group out there, and given just how many different ethnicities there are just in the U.S. alone for whom English is at least their primary (if not only) language, it's interesting how many LGBT stories are encountered that involve pairings where either both individuals are Caucasian or one of the individual is Caucasian. There just don't seem to be that many stories involving pairings where both individuals are of an ethnicity other than Caucasian, though such pairings certainly must occur in real life with some level of frequency.
--Yes, many American Blacks kept their slave-owner's names (sometimes with alternate spellings), and many others just took the name of a famous president (hence, the commonality of Jefferson and Washington as surnames in the black community). One of my ancestors was a slave owner with the name Gillespie. The famous trumpet player Dizzy Gillespie was a descendant of one of the slaves he owned.
I do remember several stories with multi-ethnic relationships by the same author, who I can't remember the name of (all his stories were pretty much the same story, just set in different historic exotic locales).
As for myself, I'm attracted to the unique. Several years ago I was terribly attracted to a co-worker who was from South Sudan, and I've yet to meet a person blacker than he was (he was also about 6'10" and maybe 12 stone at most).
BTW, family lore had suggested Native American blood in our family, so I took a DNA test; turns out that we are about 99% white (English, Irish, Scandinavian, a bit of French and Spanish, and 1% "west Asian"), and not a drop of Native. My partner, who seems 100% Italian, turns out has a lot of north African, Greek, and Albanian ancestry..
[Updated on: Fri, 26 January 2018 23:48]
"Able was I ere I saw Elba"
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Re: Homosexuality is not the preserve of the white races 
